Too Many Hats: HR Tips for Landscape Owners

roots_of_success_ace_coaches_roundtable_september_2025 (1080p) Speaker: [00:00:00] And so as an owner, he had to remind his kids about the fact that, hey, when we're at work, we're not family. This is a professional relationship. So his son was coming into work, uh, a new member of the finance team. And, uh, Jeffrey walked into his office and said, here, I ain't a daddy boy. Speaker 3: Welcome to The Roots of Success, the Premier Landscapers podcast that brings you the latest tips and strategies for successful landscape business. I'm Jim Calli, one of the principles and coaches of McFarland Stanford. Jason New and I started McFarland Stanford to coach landscape businesses after years in the industry ourselves, now more than 10 years since we began, McFarland has a deep bench of coaches and. Subject matter experts who work with our clients on very specific issues of business. Whether you're struggling with people, profits, or just day-to-day challenges, our coaches and guests have the real world experience and practical advice to help you build a thriving and profitable landscape business. Speaker 4: Welcome to The [00:01:00] Roots of Success, the Premier Landscapers podcast. We are working right now to leverage, uh, new formats. We're leveraging the expertise we have with a team, with hosts that are gonna be joining us. And a member Roundtable today. Jason New here with McFarland Stanford. Uh, glad to join you here for the Roots of Success in our podcast today. Uh, my background, uh, joined the company by, for. Meeting Jim and us working together and many years ago in a landscape company. My background is working through a corporate world of Brickman Group that then led into a small company that was out of Dallas and we grew a company there, uh, from a very small, you know, team to a very large team over a seven year period where really I learned a ton. I learned a lot of practical application things that helped me grow and help. Our clients today in the way of growing maintenance companies, recurring services, and really getting their teams built for success as they're growing through things. And so as we're introducing ourselves, I wanna make sure you understand we have a deep bench of coaches and [00:02:00] expertise that I wanna make sure you get to know and introduce today. And so next to me, I have Barrett Chow Barrett. Can you kick us off with some introductions? Speaker 5: Of course. Barrett Chow, executive coach and director of Recruiting. I have a, my career has been in human resources and I actually used to be a client of McFarland Stanford. Um, my career has spanned multiple industries from professional sports to landscaping, to private travel as well as software. So, um, recruiting and people have been my passion. So, um, I'm excited to help build teams and solve people problems for our clients. Speaker 6: All right. Uh, Chris Ick. Uh, I focus on sales and operational leadership, and so, uh, not too dissimilar from most people in landscaping. Uh, I grew up in landscaping and started mowing at 12. Uh, had my own Leon business that, uh, I ran all the way up until I went to college, uh, where I went to go study, uh, horticulture and landscape design. Um, from there, moved into [00:03:00] the industry professionally and worked for a couple large outfits, a couple large, uh, commercial outfits. Uh, where I got to speak, cut my teeth on the operational side first before I moved into sales. And then once I moved into sales, had an opportunity to, um, really start moving into what sales looks like as we evolved, what a company was and how we took it from four to 32 million. Uh, and got to be an intricate part of, of what and how we did that and what that looked like. And, uh, have learned a lot of stuff that I now get to teach, uh, other professionals what and how we do things. Speaker 7: Uh, my name is Kevin Km. It's nice to meet you all. Um, I come from a corporate background after 13 years with Dow Chemical, uh, mainly in the professional pest management space. Uh, went and worked for a bit in some of the technology sector and then arrived most recently at Innovative Pest Control, where I helped their continued growth and in a successful exit. Uh, and this May. And so I'd bring a corporate to entrepreneurial background with a focus in sales, uh, marketing and operational excellence. Speaker: And I'm Vince Tortilla, vice President [00:04:00] of the Grow Group. Happy to be partnered with Marty Gruer. It's actually my 15th year of working with Marty. So I started there as a general intern, learning more about landscaping, working with the owners and leaders of landscaping companies, fortunate enough to be at a landscaping company, watching them grow, seeing what a morning rollout looks like. And then I decided to go back to law school later in my career. So again, a general leadership coach, but I do like to dive into the legal compliance aspects of what companies are going through. Aside from the general leadership that, again, I've picked up with 15 years of working with Marty and Grander Landscaping Company. Speaker 3: Hi, my name is Jim Calli. I've been to the industry now for almost 20 years. Uh, started as a client, learned more about the industry from the aspect of, you know, how could I work locally and not travel so much. Um. I joined a landscaping firm, um, just like Jason. Uh, together we helped grow a team with Chris, um, over a period of seven years. Um, and at the end of the day, we, we wanted to be a part, a bigger part of the industry, whether it was involved in associations and now into the coaching side of the world where we helped take all of our tips and tricks and [00:05:00] strategies that we've learned over the years. Um, listen really well and help formulate a strategy for all of our clients every day. Love what I do. I Speaker 4: love that. Well, let's jump into this. We're gonna do some quick fire questions around some things that we are experiencing with our clients, our peer groups, and things that we're working on and some things that are coming up lately, right? So new trends and what we're, one of my first questions we're jumping into, and we're just gonna get some feedback from each of you, is our client's backlogs are shrinking. And so what are we, what are we sharing, or what are we learning as far as best practices on what we're doing to move that forward and drive the business forward right now? Who wants to kick us off? I'll Speaker 3: kick it off. I, I've had quite a few conversations this week about that, um, you know, people don't know what they don't know. And whether it's internally in your team or whether it's with your clientele, um, your clientele being your partners, tell them you've got time available. You know, the funny thing that I'm seeing actually with our, uh, a number of our clients at the present moment happens to be that they've got a backlog starting September the 15th. They've got this, actually this six [00:06:00] week period right now. Uh, and, and how are they gonna fill it? I said, tell 'em. Let's, let's, let's put an email out there and tell people, and that may trigger some things in their own heads that, you know, you may count on your account manager or others to make sure you're getting your messaging out. But that's certainly one important part. But the second piece of that would be just put it in a marketing email and say, Hey, we've got openings for the next six weeks. What can we do for you? How do we get your house ready for fall? We've got openings, and as a client we want Speaker 4: you to know first. That's a great answer. I love that because it gives a sense of urgency around also the timeline of when you're open to do it. Bingo. The sense of urgency is Speaker 3: key. Mm-hmm. Speaker 6: Yeah. And I was, uh, I had an opportunity to, to teach at a conference this past week where, uh, this actually came up. Uh, they were talking about the struggle that we're having now with sales and how that looks different than what we've had in the past. And, and it's been interesting because we were, when we were talking, uh, it was about the fact that we're kind of back to that pre 2019, pre 2020 sales phase where, uh, the work doesn't just walk in the door. Um, and we've gotta get back to [00:07:00] more of that proactive hunting, proactive business development. Uh, a little bit more of the old school mentality of what and how we go hunt down prospects. Uh, which I think over the last four or five years people have gotten very content and very complacent as to what and how we approach sales because sales were just falling at our feet. Mm-hmm. And that was very easy to, uh, to take on. Um, so when we look at how we solve that, you know, a lot of the conversations I think we're having now are centered around the fact of how do we develop relationships? How do we go deeper with relationships? Um, how do we look at the low hanging fruit that's sitting in front of us? You know, the irrigation repairs, uh, the seasonal enhancements, the high margin opportunities, uh, that are really just, they're there every day and, and the landscape gives it to us. We just have to go out there and be effective and efficient about what and how we approach it and how we, how we go attack it. Methodically work through those systems, but the work is there, you know, it, it hasn't gone away. Uh, it's still there, it's very much still in process. It's still being developed. Uh, there's a lot of money moving around. [00:08:00] Um, but you've gotta go hunt it down and you've gotta go find creative ways to go solve that. And that's, that's where I think a lot of the conversations are going now. Speaker: Yeah. And I wanna, I wanna piggyback directly off of Chris because I think that Chris is exactly right in terms of the coaching and the messaging that we want our clients to hear is that we are fortunate to be working with companies that have been growing. And so they've been putting work into the ground and as Chris said, landscapes mature over time. So the 45,000, 60,000 Jo dollars job you put in a year ago, it's gonna look different now. So can we set up some property walks? Can we draw a line in the sand and go, Hey, anybody that spent money with us last year over X amount of dollars? Mm-hmm. We need to go to some property walks with them because their properties are gonna look different. Maybe we've been, maybe we've been maintaining them, maybe we haven't been maintaining them, but people are spending money. So let's go on some property walks. Let's be proactive and let's not just assume things are gonna come in the door. Let's get out and walk properties. Exactly what Chris said. I think that we have to go back to some of the things that got us to growing our business, which was some like good old fashioned hustle, some good old fashioned property walks, showing your expertise and showing that you [00:09:00] care about the maturity of their landscape. This is not a transaction for us. This is a relationship. So let's go walk properties. Let's suggest things that we can do and let's make sure that we are maintaining that relationship with our clients. Thank you. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 5: I've seen a lot of success with my clients who have more of a new sales backlog, drought and actually going in and tapping into previous and existing clients. Right. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 5: Um, I think we get enamored with feel filling that backlog with new, new, new, new sales. And we sometimes, to Vince and Chris's point, we forget that. We have relationships built with existing clients. We've done good work, and that usually leads to more work and tapping into, okay, your landscape's grown in three years, how do we make this better? And people's lives change. Kids go to college. You don't need certain things in your backyard anymore. So we can upgrade it and, and make it more functional for what stage of life you're in now. I, Speaker 3: I'm gonna challenge Chris real quick on some of the [00:10:00] comments that he made. Um, meaning that, you know, the longer term aspects of relationships, 100% spot on where you're at, right? The more, now it's the immediate need, okay? Mm-hmm. So what do you do today, right? So answer that, and then the, the flip side of that is, is after what do you do today? What do you plan for next? And how do you get people to make this more of a system of a relationship as opposed to one that just happens gutterly when you don't have any work. Speaker 6: Yeah, I know. It's, uh, it's a really good way, way of putting it. So I'll use the example of like a maintenance business developer, like a maintenance business developer. Works with property manager. A property manager a manages 10 properties. Well, it turns out we only manage two of those 10 properties, right? So when we talk about how do we further develop a relationship, well, rather than us going out and creating all these new conversations with cold leads of people who've never seen our services, never seen our trucks, know nothing about what we do. Uh, I always like to say, well, what can we do to go deeper with property manager a and how do we go from two properties to four [00:11:00] to six properties? And then, oh, by the way, property manager a actually works at a firm that has 10 other property managers. What other ties do they have? 'cause if you take 10 other property managers times 10 properties, immediately we've got a pipeline of of opportunity that's like right there at our grass of somebody that's already seen our work, already knows what we're capable of. Already knows the quality and the performance, right? We already have put our foot in the door. Um, we just want to go a little bit deeper and take that next step to start enhancing what those opportunities look like Speaker 3: or take that relationship that you have with that property manager. And even though you're not taking PA. Care of that fifth, sixth, and seventh property. Maybe that fifth, sixth, and seventh property needs an enhancement tomorrow. And that's our first step into the property. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: As you manage those relationships, it doesn't have to be the long term sale, it doesn't have to be the long term contract you're looking for, it's more about showing the work. Yeah. And having an opportunity to do, to fill a need, immediate need that they have that didn't know how they we're gonna Speaker 6: solve. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 6: And then I always like to say, you know, to me, once I bid the work, I've already put in the effort to go measure the property. Um, even if I [00:12:00] lost it, those are still existing properties that are out there. Right. Like, and so there's no reason why you shouldn't be going back to these on a regular basis. 'cause they may not go with you in year one. They may go with you in year three or five or six. Right. You know, but you've already done the legwork, you've got the measurements, you've got everything. You know, these should stay on your list until, you know, you feel like, hey, it's just not the right client for us. Relentless. You know? Yeah. So it's just that persistence that you have to go after. Right. I Speaker 7: think we've all focused a lot on, on taking your current book of business and focusing on that. And it can be a gut knee jerk reaction to go spend lots of money on marketing, um, and, and try to pull in more leads and, and, and fill that pipeline that way. But the reality is, this goes back to basic blocking and tackling of marketing. You already have leads that you didn't close. Um, and they may have not gone with you. They might have not done the work at all. And there's an opportunity to go back to those clients and talk to them. And if they did go with somebody else, then go back clean up because you know, to your point, that property's not gonna look the same. And maybe you can come in and politely point out [00:13:00] that you, uh, would've done a better job, but you can correct their mistakes now, um, and, and be able to pull in some, some maintenance. And Jim, you mentioned that's filling the need now, right? How do you, how do you go past that? And I'm amazed that you did not mention this, but you should have a sales calendar. Speaker 3: Ding, ding, ding, ding. That's what I was looking for, to be Speaker 7: able to, to talk about that in, and I know that that's another talk that we talked about earlier this week about taking. Uh, now and, and planning ahead, uh, for the fall, for the winter, for spring. Uh, and, you know, the world keeps spinning, uh, and we're gonna need to keep using whatever strategy now for fall, next fall. So build that calendar out and, and focus on that so that your team knows, you know, what game play in to go put into place when needed. Yeah. Speaker 4: Yeah. Well said. And I, and I'd say from all of these things that you're speaking to, it's, it's really getting your team to understand that, helping them train them, the sales activities that really drive progress and success in the things that you're talking about. So [00:14:00] it's, these are great points. I appreciate you guys bringing that up. Um, alright. Question two, ready to run into it. Does your team know how you make money? Do we know how to make money as a company? How do, how do, how do they learn that? How are people sharing that and do they know it? Speaker 7: You mean We don't all work for the Salvation Army. Speaker 3: We're for profit. Money. Money. Money's Speaker 7: important. Speaker 3: First step is asking 'em if they, if they know how we make money. Right. You might be surprised, there will be people on your teams that know exactly how to make money, but in our experience, that has not been normally the case. Right? So first step is, hey, ask them, do you know how we make money? If not, there's certainly a lot of different ways you can go about doing that, right? One of the examples that we've used, and certainly we used Barrett with your team years ago was, is. How many pennies out of a dollar do we make from a profitability standpoint when we're quoting jobs? Um, and if, if you sell it for a dollar, at the end of the day, if a, if a landscape company, and going back to typical landscape companies in that 4% margin range, we make four pennies [00:15:00] on a dollar. And then using that example of four pennies being on presentations that you make or even hang the four pennies on the wall, people get a little upset that we do a lot, a lot of work to earn four pennies that that will ring true. But let's teach 'em how to get from four to six and how do we get from six to eight, and how do we get from eight to 10? Notice I didn't do, how do we get from four to 10, right? It's incremental small steps that we make together as a team that we're gonna get ourselves to that profitability level. That happens to be our goal. But to your question, Jason, you need to find out do they know how we make money, and if not, educate the teams leadership. Everyone in between of how we make money. Speaker 4: So, and can I throw something out? Sure. Are you a fan of open Speaker 3: book management then? Speaker 4: As far as sharing those types? I can't imagine Speaker 3: running a company without open book management. Very good. And the question is, why, right? How, how do you run a company when the team does not know what are where we spend our money? You know, at the end of the day, it's a checkbook. You have dollars in and dollars out, and the team understands the checkbook mentality, right? And if you spend more money that's in your checkbook, it's a loss. And lucky for us. Shouldn't have [00:16:00] overdraft fees. But my point is, is you know, when you're making, spending decisions and thinking about profits, do we have the money to pay for it? And how are we gonna pay for it? And getting the team to think about that besides you, the owner mm-hmm. Is imperative. Because otherwise you're gonna do what, you're gonna carry the ulcer yourself. Mm-hmm. And you're never gonna be able to do better without talking to your team about figuring out how to bring more pennies to the bottom line. Speaker 5: Well, and I'll, I'll build off of that. You know, I think it, the penny exercise is like one of my favorites to use, but. Uh, it's also finding out what works for your company and, and what you can connect with them. Um, I was just at a peer group visit and they have a, a little bit more of a, a. Way to connect with their employees is bush light. And instead of, instead of using pennies, they used a 30 pack of bush light and they said, this is our revenue, right? And they started pouring it into cups and they say, you know, if we do well, this is what you get. And they looked at it and they're like, it's a sip. Like, but [00:17:00] when they started pouring it out, it was like horror. And it was like, this is what happens when you wreck a truck. And they poured it out and they were like, oh, right. But it made it, it connected with them. You could have put pennies in front of them and it wouldn't have had the same impact as pouring bush light down the drain. Right. And it, it's, it's finding also the best way to convey that message of how we make money and, and, and how it connects with your, your workforce. It's relatability. Correct. You know, Bush Speaker 7: Light's a great way to measure that because over time it could go from Bush Light to Bud Light to Stella, and then you, you know, you know that the concept is working, people understanding money. Um, I think, Jim, to your point about open book management, I think it's important. I always tell everybody, baby, step into it. I mean, you don't need to go full. Right. Full bore, open your p and l talk about everything and overwhelm people. Um, I think a, a good baby step that, that we took is, and, and we tried to make it, the, the penny exercise is fantastic. We personally use that. I've, I've coached a lot to that. [00:18:00] Um, and the biggest thing that we talk about is, is visualize it. So we would either lay them out on the conference room table with the company, or, uh, at one point we used a hundred dollars bills, which led to other jokes. We're not gonna go down that path, but it let them visualize that if you just set off. All of those dollars. You know, it's a good visual for people. Most of our clients and their employees are, I mean, we're in, we make things beautiful. So to be able to give them that visual is, is incredibly impactful for them, and I think drives that home. But the other thing is to take individual instances. Uh, we talk about this a lot. Anyone's who've ever heard us talk about, um, you know, what is it, what is a device that's lost really cost, right? So if you leave a backpack, um, like a leaf blower somewhere. You know, what is a, what is a leaf blower? 500, 600 bucks. And so they think, oh, that was a $500 loss. Well, no, it's not. If you're at a five or 10% for easy math, 10%, you know, net profit, then it's a $5,000 backpack that just costs the company. And so [00:19:00] maybe that's a good way to try to get people to understand the financial impact that comes along, uh, so that we make smart decisions, you know, made the joke about the Salvation Army. But, um, we, it was one that I, I used a lot, right? I mean. You know, be, uh, be bold in the fact that we, we, we are for-profit because for-profit leads to jobs, careers and growth in the industry. Um, you shouldn't back down from that. Don't be afraid of it. Speaker 6: Yeah. When, and when I think of how do you make that, you know, an easy bite-sized chunk and you start to think through your average manager you hire, uh, doesn't come in wanting to go sell stuff, right? Like they got into this industry probably not to go sell. They got into this industry because they want to be outside. They got into this industry because they wanna, you know. Be able to work with plants, work with, you know, the, the, the what the yard and what the landscape provides. Um, so we use that, like you mentioned the calendar. And I always like to say with the calendar, I mean with my horticulture degree, I always say, let let the sales be dictated by what the environment provides you. Right? So, uh, we do dormant [00:20:00] pruning. We do, uh, we do that in the fall. When do we want to go prune missile toe in Texas? We want to do that when the trees don't have leaves. Why? Because it's the only green in the tree, right? I don't have to sell that, that's an easy sell because the customer can relate to that. They can see that my account manager can easily look up there and go, what is that green thing in the tree? Yeah, that's your, that's your missile toe. We wanna prune that out. Right? And so, um, so I always say, let let horticulture, let's science drive. What's going on? You know, what do we want to do in April and may, you know, when we're in the south, we wanna check irrigation. Why do we wanna check irrigation? Because it's about to be a hundred degrees for a hundred days straight. Right? What do we know a client's gonna get ba uh, upset and fire us about, they're gonna fire us because the water doesn't work. My grass is dying, my plants are dying. You guys must not be doing anything right. Um, and all that is, is just letting you know the environment, show us what we need to be selling, and then we can quickly script that and, and make that into a sales system, um, that our managers [00:21:00] can go out and be effective with. Speaker: Mm-hmm. And when it comes back to even the things that, uh, again, Jim and Barrett brought up with Kevin, along with the financial transparency of an organization, we've seen a lot of companies successfully roll out some sort of financial education, knowing the first time it might not be perfect, right? Knowing we might bump our elbows, scrape our knees. Boy, I didn't define that word, or I did, I, and I got 80 people looking at me. But we've gotta start somewhere. And so companies have taken over this version of like a state of the Union at the end of every month to talk about some high level numbers. You might be talking to a team of 100. 30 of them might have no idea what we're talking about. Mm-hmm. 20 of them might recognize some words and be comfortable. There might be 10 or 15 that are on the edge of their seat. 'cause they really want to understand this, and that's really who we're talking to. So I would encourage everybody to have a formal end of the month, state of the union. Here's, here's what our revenue were, here's what our big costs were. To Chris's point, here's what's coming up. By the way, this isn't just a one way financial conversation. This is, hey, we're leading into fall. We just look that our margins aren't really quite where they need to be. Let's focus on these [00:22:00] enhancements that the landscape is giving us. But if we never take the time as an organization to slow down, talk about financial education, have an opportunity where everyone from our team hears the same thing. Mm-hmm. At the same time, we don't play the telephone game through meetings and end up with different numbers or metrics that we're talking about. If we can really close in on that monthly state of the union financial conversation that everyone knows is coming. You will naturally have more understanding as time goes on. I would encourage everybody as part of Open Book to get comfortable with those end of the month meetings with their teams. Speaker 4: And I, and I wanna say there's been so many successes for the ones that take that step and get some help if you don't feel comfortable doing it. But the idea would be, we've seen people do price increases that haven't renewed contracts in years and realize they weren't priced the right way in their market. They weren't priced to make money for their team and for their company. And so it allowed them to start reconnecting with what makes them a profitable company, what are some changes they need to make? And the buy-in from the team at that point gets a lot easier because they know where we're going. And [00:23:00] where we're, where we're headed with the profitability of the company. Speaker 3: And last, but at least I'd like, I'd be remiss if I didn't share this, but you know, it's, it's one thing about the financial education at the end of the month. The reality is as a leader, it's about the consistency of the financial education at the end of the month. Right. This is not a one and done, and we don't talk about it next month and not the next month. Right. Until you're prepared to start talking about this and do it on a regular basis, it's not gonna stick. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: And we can talk about that from a finance perspective. We can talk about that from a safety perspective. We can talk about that from an operations perspective. And that's the hard part about being a leader is, is how do you keep all those balls in the air? But I can tell you consistency really is, is the piece that's the most important thing at the end of the day on all these education pieces we're talking about. Speaker: I love it. And I want to, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up that at, at Grr Landscaping Company. That meeting is called the Grow Meeting, and it is the third Wednesday of every month. Allah, Jim Calli. Don't rethink when this meeting's going to happen. Oh, we're gonna do it on the 17th this month. We'll do the 22nd next month. Oh, we're on vacation that month. We're gonna skip it in March. 'cause we're busy. No, no, no, no, no. To your point. The third Wednesday of the month, everybody knows we're gonna talk about [00:24:00] finance. Speaker 6: Yeah. And the the only thing I'd add to that, uh, is don't think it has to be perfect the first time you do it. Like, get comfortable with just being uncomfortable and just say, look, I'm just gonna wade into this space. I'm just gonna do this and I'm probably gonna botch this 10 ways from Sunday, but I'm gonna be I vulnerable and I'm be open. I'm gonna let 'em know. Hey guys, I'm gonna screw this up, but we're gonna start having this conversation. We're gonna start digging into it. Um, because naturally over time you will get better at it, right? And you will get more consistent with it and people will start to see your growth through the process as well. Um, but sometimes that vulnerability, I think is what, honestly, it's what gets the team to follow you. It's what gets them to understand that like, hey, they're in it for me. I'm in it for them. That's kind of what we're kind of going for. So. Don't wait until you have it. Perfect. And there's, there's other people that are on this podcast that I'm sure are listening that I'm gonna say, you know, I'm talking directly to you, like sometimes just moving forward is taking a step in the right direction, even if it's not a hundred percent right. Speaker 4: Well, let's, let's segue into something that's gonna be exciting. We, we follow a, a process. We go people, process profits, right? And we've [00:25:00] covered profits, we've covered some process changes, some things we wanna look at. More importantly. And most importantly, we look at our people. And so the next question for us is, as we are growing and we're changing, sometimes the people that are gonna be with us today aren't necessarily gonna be the ones that take us to where we wanna be next. And so what do we do as far as how do we work with our people, and then how do we grow with this people plan as we need to make some changes for our future? And I'd like to ask you guys, each questions on what you're seeing as far as best practices and changes that people are, are taking steps to make those changes. Speaker 5: Well, I, I can jump into this one too, because I think that. What I've seen become a lot more prevalent in our peer groups and in our companies is we are starting to get career paths out there showing people the path forward. Um, it, it's easier to create retention within a company as well. When you can see the path you're gonna, you're more willing to stay on it. Right? And, you know, as you grow. [00:26:00] People reach their limits and understanding what those limits are, it's, you have to be open and honest about, yeah, I, you were the leader now, but what worked for us then we're double that size and that's outside of your skillset, but in order for you to grow, this is how we're gonna help you grow and this is what you need to do. That doesn't mean that, you know, we, we take you out back and, you know, you're no longer with the company. Right. But it, it's one of those things of. You, you wanna make sure that you're finding the right seat for the people on the bus. Right? And the other thing that I, I really see people doing more and more is that, that one-on-one conversation, right? Making sure that they're intentional about this is why you're not in this role, or this is what we see for you. And, and really being intentional about having those conversations so there's no gray area for them to create a story of why or why not they're getting this role. Speaker 3: B I'm gonna add onto that. Yes. [00:27:00] Um, the most important part about what you just described was, is that you're, you're not leaving ambiguity in what and where they're going next with ambiguity. It becomes, whatever is in their head is what they think the truth is gonna be. Mm-hmm. Right? But if you lay out that path, I look at it as a runway, you build trust. Right. And so the, and, and as long as you're executing based on the commitments that you've made together, you'll go somewhere if that individual is not appropriate for the next role. You may determine that as a leader, but the reality is. Wouldn't it be a better story if the person said, well, you gave me the path to get there, and they wouldn't figured out how to get there, but at least you're giving 'em the rules of the game and engagement and can put themselves in a position to get themselves there. Mm-hmm. That's success. Speaker 7: I think we also, we quickly look at this and we think, um, employees on our team, right? But I mean, this also applies if you're the owner of the company, right? Like, I had the fortunate pleasure of going and working for a, a, a business owner who recognized that he had hit his limit on what he could do with the company and to create a role. Uh, for himself, uh, and then allow me to come in and be able to take the company in a [00:28:00] direction that he knew it needed to go and where he wanted it to go. So I think there's always that element of this should start with yourself too, right? As well as your team. Uh, and then go from there. And, you know, Barry, you mentioned the bus and, and are you in the right seat on the bus? And, and go back to the basics. You did this on day one with us. Your red, yellow, green exercise with your org chart. Are you, are you consistently doing that? Are you, are you doing it throughout the year? Um, and are you applying some metrics to it? You know, whether it's a smart goal or ways to measure, measure, you know, the true impact and performance. Uh, and then go from there. And so that's the first half of it. The second half of it is how do you go and action that new role that you may need to create? For that new career path. And I think what we tend to do, and what this is a common conversation I've had a lot recently in accountability calls, um, is I need to create roles and responsibilities for each role. I need to define them. And I think we, we kind of get [00:29:00] AFib over this and we panic and we start to think about, you know, what does that look like? Well start with the basics to, you know, define the role. And the most simplest way to look at this is I want one sentence. You should be able to have one sentence that defines the role so that when you give Chris that job, Chris can go in one sentence, described to a client what he does, right? So if that's the goal at the end, then start with that, right? The rest of the roles and responsibilities can be a bullet point list. It doesn't need to be anything more than that, but that one sentence we, we spend to, we tend to build these novels, these four page documents that describe what we do. At the end of the day, bullet points are great, but just get a description so that employee knows exactly what their role is, what they do, and and what impact they have. And then lastly, and then I'll be quiet 'cause I care about this a lot, is the why, right? If you're gonna move an employee, what's, why, why are we moving that employee, right? Um, what, why does the company need growth? Why does this role exist? I think that's a really [00:30:00] key point. It's almost as important as the financial element of it is that. That transparency around, you know, why the change is occurring, um, so that they buy into it and believe it. Speaker 6: Yeah. And Kevin, I think you touched on some really good stuff there. And the, the only thing I would add to that is it's, it's the alignment aspect, right? Uh, I'm coaching, uh, another individual right now, and all of these things are clearly laid out. And as I kind of start talking to both leadership and I'm talking to the manager, uh, what I'm finding is, is the alignment between the two is not the same. Uh, the growth goals for the company. Don't align with what this individual wants to be doing, who's been there for a very, very long time. Um, so that's one. Number two, the expectations of what this individual was supposed to be getting done in their day to day has grown over the course of the last 3, 5, 10 years. Great point. Um, and now the structure of what the organization looks like does no longer, it no longer aligns with. What this gentleman is doing on a day-to-day basis. Right. And so [00:31:00] what is being asked of him? Yeah, he's gonna fail because as I'm sitting here going through what his expectations are of what he's supposed to be getting done, I'm like. He's not capable of this. Like nobody, no individual could do everything you're asking and produce what, what you're asking to be produced. Um, so there's some organizational stuff that needs to happen from a, an alignment standpoint to make sure that we get better direction, better organizational setups, uh, and systems and processes in place so that we can get to these growth goals that have been laid out for the company, the owner, the team member. Um, and so is he the right person? Maybe, maybe not. We will decide. But I do think with the alignment of what the expectations are and starting to put a few more people into seats, I think we will see more success in that person being successful over the extended period of time. You know, and maybe that role looks a little bit different, um, but that, that factors into the equation too, you know? Mm-hmm. So, as you go back to all the stuff you mentioned, I think that alignment is, is pretty critical too. The Speaker: biggest thing I'm hearing is that we're playing [00:32:00] offense with our team, where I think this is a new thing. To Barrett's point, people were not playing offense in terms of planning with their people. It was always on the defense, Hey, what's next for me? Which is a very common question that people get asked, what's next? So we have to be thinking about that for our team as well, because some team members. Uh, they're not thinking about what's next for them at all. They're coming into work every day. They're doing their job, they're punching a clock, or they're running a crew, or they're managing properties, and they have not thought about what's next for them. And again, that's no fault of their own. They're just doing their work. But we owe that to them as a leadership team, as a management team, to show them a path for what's next and what's next. Might be doing the exact same role you're doing in a different capacity. It might be moving up in the org chart, but for us to be in control of what's next for them. Again, control is, sounds like a word that is maybe like dirty, right? Right. Like we're controlling this for them. It's, no, we just wanna make sure that we are providing opportunities. And for us to do that, we have to have some control over this process. So we're gonna play offense with it. So again, what's next does not need to be a promotion. Right. But what's next should be on the minds of us for our team members. Because for [00:33:00] them, younger team members, especially being in a role for six months, they feel like they've been in that role for six years. Right. And they're one of a hundred team members that we have. And. We should be giving them more than 1% of our time, right in that math equation I'm giving you, but really understanding that these team members that we have, this is their livelihood. This is what they're hanging their hat on. This is what they're talking about at family parties, at Christmas, at Thanksgiving, over the 4th of July, your career comes up. And so if we're not helping them understand what's next for them, somebody else might do that. And so just a good way to lead into this is what's next for our team and how do we, again, put controls in place so that we can guide them through that. Absolutely. Speaker 5: I want to jump in one last time too, because Kevin brought something up about, you know, we could talk about this forever, something I'm passionate about as well, but I think as a company grows, the smaller. You are, it's easier to wear multiple hats and you're, you're required to. But as that company grows, we need to start defining roles for the [00:34:00] company, not around a person, because then we start making exceptions. Then we start creating extenuating circumstances that actually make us less efficient versus, 'cause we're trying to hold onto a person or keep them happy versus what's right for the business. Right. And what's the skillset that we need? For the business and that will help us be the most effective, not, wow, I've had this employee for 25 years and I just have to find a way to make it work at the detriment to 99 other employees. Speaker 4: I love that. You know what, you know what I appreciate most about working with this group right here as and the coaches, is that we can learn so much from each other. We work with hundreds of clients all over the country, and we get to benchmark things like this. We get to see firsthand when, when changes are happening, how to do it well, what doesn't go well. And I love you guys sharing these stories. Um, it's a, it's a great segue segue to, um, what's your favorite story? If you have a client story, what is your favorite story? [00:35:00] Oh man. Speaker: I've got, I've got one we can do. So there we go. Maybe I'll use names. We can believe 'em out if not, but I'll just use names. Jeffrey Johns has been an ACE member for a very long time. Uh, he's got two sons, um, that are now in the business. They're actually part of our peer groups now. Very common in landscaping. It's a family business. And so as an owner, he had to remind his kids about the fact that, hey, when we're at work. We're not family. This is a professional relationship. So his son was coming into work, uh, a new member of the finance team and uh, Jeffrey walked into his office and said, here, I ain't your daddy boy. Yeah. But that's a great story. That encapsulates Jeffrey very well as well. But Jeffrey Johns was our Ace of the year last year. An awesome guy. But I love that story about how. He brought his kids into the business. Speaker 6: By the way, I'll second that. When he, his son just got into one of my peer groups and, uh, when he was doing his introduction to the group, uh, he made it very clear. He told the exact same story and he goes, [00:36:00] yeah, and everybody asked the question, so what's it like working with your dad? And he goes, well, my dad was very clear that at work, he's not my daddy. Speaker 4: It's like, uh, I have a wind story. May not be great and funny, but it's, uh, one of the, one of the ACEs that we go through. It's, it's hard to make a lot of change or go through things. And they were going through, I think, contract renewals for the first time. And so they're doing cutting grass, you know, and per cut services, right? And moving into a program where he was gonna do package services and he realized he, he wasn't even charging enough. I think he was charging like $20 a cut. And at that point I was like, I think that was a 1990 price. This is, this is about long a while ago. Uh, so we got him to, you know, UpToDate pricing with package pricing. He goes, I think I'm gonna lose all of my clients. And he was fearful of that. I said, okay, let's go after just a third of your clients. Let's do a third of your clients and you'd be okay with losing. And so he sent out this whole deal. He, out of a hundred clients, he lost 25 clients. 75 said yes. And he was [00:37:00] like, I'm making more money on the yeses than the ones that I've lost out of the 25 that he lost. A month or two later, 20 of those came back. Right? And so he, he goes, oh my gosh, I'm doing the same work. I'm making double the money that I'm doing. And I'm just like, that's the win. That's the, that's the success of us giving confidence to people that we work with and just reaffirming things that, you know, they need to do. So that was a win for me and a, and a fun story. So Speaker 3: my innovative story actually took place with you, Chris, and I'll, I'll never forget, walking into to the landscaper in Seattle, Washington and seeing all the lunches set up for the team. Oh yeah. Um, and, um. And that all came from understanding that, that the team members were not eating properly. It was had nothing to do with stopping a gas station, didn't have the money to stop at the gas station. All right? And when he found the need, he's like, I think we can take this internally with the support team and we can provide lunches. And I think, help me re, was it $10 a week? He charged them. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Right. And for $10 For Ack lunch. Yeah. For for sack lunch. And they got to [00:38:00] pick what their sack lunch was gonna be, and the team put together the sack lunches for the week, every single week. And I, that's a need that we're not thinking about. He saw it as something that he could provide value to the, to the, to the field, to the front line, right. Um, and that warmed my heart. And, and, and from an innovation perspective, it's funny that making sure the team is fed at lunch is innovative, but it was quite innovative and it was listening to a need. Speaker 6: Yeah. That was, he was one of our most innovative ACEs that we gave the war to a couple years ago. Right. Um, yeah. And it's something they get to elect into. I remember that story very well. Uh, they get to elect into it. And the participation rate for who elected into the lunches was what really? I was like, eh, maybe it's just a small part. No, it was a large majority of the team that actually elected into it. Um, and then he made it a whole team environment of what and how we get people to participate making lunches and, you know, and what goes in the lunches and you get to fill out your order form just like you're at a hotel to what goes in your lunch and they provide it and out in the truck it goes. And so, yeah, that was a great one. And so, uh, it's funny, I was sitting here thinking, uh, of what [00:39:00] is, what is a funny story I've had over the last 10, 11 years. Uh, and mine comes back to, uh, honestly, it was the very first trip I had just started. We were going to a company event, uh, to go speak at, uh, at a conference in Cabos, new Mex or Cabos, Mexico. And uh, and I'll never forget because I was a late addition to the trip and the event was being hosted at a hotel that, uh, I was not able to get a room at. And so very quickly we we're like, Hey, we need to get Chris a room for this event. And so I ended up down the street at another hotel. And, uh, and I'll relate this all back because I had an opportunity there. Uh, I'll, I'll paint the picture of the room. The room was you walk in through the lobby of a hospital and after you go through the lobby of this hospital in Mexico, you make your way to the back office, which is the hotel. And then when you get to the hotel, you notice everything is tile floors. You notice that [00:40:00] everything has handrails. And very quickly you realize, oh my God, I'm at a hospital for just like. Plastic surgery treatments, medical surgeries for people who come from other parts of the world for healthcare in Mexico. And uh, and so I got to stay at this hotel and I relayed this all back because in doing that, I found out really quickly it was me and one other guy that got to stay at this hotel and attend this conference. And it just so happened he was a leader of all regional sales, uh, for a very large, um. Commercial equipment company and, uh, and so he and I would load the little bus and we'd make our way to the conference every morning and every afternoon. And we became very good friends and actually stayed in touch for years and years after that. Um, as a result of that, because it was this funny, relatable thing of like, I can't believe we're here. Like, what are we doing here? Like everybody here has bandages and packages and stuff going on. And yet here we are going to this conference. And so, [00:41:00] uh, so I really, I still still talk to the guy, you know, here 10 years later. Chris, is this the rental car where the bumper falls off? Right? There was a rental car situation there as well. Yes. Yes it was. And you didn't get upsold for two, for one facelifts before you left. You know, I moved out quickly. I left you quickly. Yeah. So let's not bring up rental cars. That's, Speaker 7: I was gonna say, there's more than one story, right? Speaker 6: There Speaker 3: is, oh yeah. Metro Trail. Let's just say we know how to work the rental cars. Well, as we wrap this up, um, if we could all take a step back and look at, um, what is one pearl item that you wish every landscaper knew, um, that can make a difference if they hear this one little pearl today from each one of us. We'll start with you, Vince. Speaker: Yeah. That, um, over communication is needed for everybody. That if you're ever thinking about are you communicating enough, just have your blanket answer be no. How can I find more ways to communicate with my team, more ways to communicate with my clients? Speaker 3: Great answer, Speaker: Kevin. Speaker 7: I mean, is it cliche to say that you just took my, [00:42:00] um, but you did, you genuinely did say, Chris. I was gonna say there's no such thing as over-communicating, so I guess it's one in the same. Speaker 6: Uh, so for me is, is certainly remember why you got into this industry and remember what brought you to wanting to push the mower. Uh, I, I think at first, um. Because I really think that's what separates you. That's why you grew a business. That's why you got into the business. That's why you have teams of people that work for you now. Um, so if you just remember like at the end of the day, we're, we're planting trees, we're planting bushes, we're mowing grass. That is one product that will never go away, right? Like it will always exist from now until forever. And so, uh, just remember why you do it. Speaker 5: I'm actually gonna steal Chris's from earlier, right? He said, you know, just get it started. And I think it's really. Progress over perfection. We try so hard to be perfect for our team members and roll out the perfect product when in reality we learned more through the progression of it and just getting it started. So I would say [00:43:00] progress over perfection. Speaker 4: Yep. Awesome. Mine would be, um, you can't do it alone. You know, reach out to a team of peers, a team of professionals. Get, get yourself out of your head. And get help. And this is ultimately where people can help you and that you're gonna be a better person for your team. Speaker 3: And that's a perfect segue because you and I started this business over 11 years ago, and mine was gonna be, you can't do it alone. Right. And together, we chose to do this. And look at us now and what we've learned, um, all these pearls are about, you're not. Every single one of the moments we just mentioned. Right? And um, whether it be the Ace peer group that you just mentioned, Jason, I mean, that's one of the largest reasons to be a part of this, is to get yourself a board of advisors that when you hit these moments of what do I, where do I go next? It doesn't have to be a frustrating moment. It actually could be an innovative moment of what, what do I do next? You've got a set of partners or a set of coaches like us that'll help you get there. You're not alone. Um, and where you can take your business is anywhere you want to take it. [00:44:00] Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to this episode of Roots of Success, brought to you by the subject matter Experts at McFarland Stanford have a question you want our coaches to tackle in a future episode. You could submit that@mcfarlandstanford.com back slash podcast. And to find more helpful content for McFarland Stanford, follow us on X, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. If this or any of our episodes have piqued your interest in ACE Peer Groups, we encourage you to join us at ACE Discovery. Just check out the events tab@mcfarlandstanford.com. This is Jason New, co-founder and principal at McFarland Stanford. We'll see you next time.