Lessons in Growth: Escaping the Owner-Operator Trap With Kerry & Jill Cline

Kerry and Jill Cline Tommy Cole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Roots of Success Podcast, and I'm your host Tommy Cole. I have two amazing guests on the show today, actually. They're not really guests and they're kind of my clients, but most importantly, they're my good friends. From a few years ago, they joined peer groups and now we have become close and we're friends and we kind of make fun of all of each other all the times, and. It's been great, but I've got Carrie Klein and Jill Klein from CNS landscape in the great state of Ohio, which I have been accustomed to in the last six, seven years to visit your awesome state. Welcome to the podcast, Jill and Kerry. How are you? Kerry and Jill Kline: Good. Good. How are you? How are you? Tommy Cole: We're good. We're good. The don't be nervous. It's okay. Here we go. I know it's a little bit, this is where we have all of our accountability [00:01:00] calls and financial updates. Look at this beautiful backdrop of the railroad ties. I love it. It's got the C for Klein and everything is, is peachy. So. Well, let's just jump right in. How C and S Lawn Service and Landscaping Started Tommy Cole: Carrie and Jill tell us how c and s landscape got started back in the day. I'm sure it's like a mowing dream. Turn to extraordinaire, right. Kerry and Jill Kline: A little bit. So when I was 15 years old, I started in the landscape industry. I actually started working for a company that did hardscape installations and it was just me, him, and one other guy. It was a very small company. I did that all through high school and I, I just loved working outside, loved working with my hands, loved building things. It was always just something I really enjoyed. When I graduated high school, I went off to college 'cause that's what I thought you were supposed to do. Tommy Cole: What we. Kerry and Jill Kline: That's what they pushed for. And so I, I went off to college and that I just realized it wasn't for me. I stayed for about a year. I, I went to North Carolina and I came [00:02:00] back. And when I got back, it was kind of one of those, I was like, what's next in life? You know, I, I truly enjoyed doing landscaping and working with my hands. And so CNS started in March of 2001. And it was one of those where passing out flyers and, and paper boxes and driving around doing whatever I could to drum up work, driving all over the place to do work. And I started off with just mowing and it was funny. I, I, I rarely ever mowed before then, I was mostly a hardscape background, so started off with mowing 'cause that's the easiest place to start. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Kerry and Jill Kline: You know, low barrier to entry, they always say. And so that's where I started and. We continue to build on that. I got a few guys over the years and we just focused on doing great work and trying to keep good guys around me. You know, when I first started it was a bunch of friends, which was nice and easy to keep around you, but then as your friends get older, they disappear. And so people that think that they can grow a business with [00:03:00] friends, it's, it's very difficult. So for many, many years I just put my head down and worked really hard. And we kind of just. Grew a little bit every year, but never got to be a huge company. In 2015 Jill came aboard. Mm-hmm. She had a background in Yeah, she had a background. Yeah. Yeah. She had a background in, in, in the medical field. And then she, she was a branch manager for a building supply company, and I was still answering the phones at the time. I was doing kind of everything and I, I really needed help. I was drowning. So that's when she came aboard. Yep. So, Tommy Cole: So Carrie, so 14 years, Kerry and Jill Kline: mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: you're pushing the mower. Are you doing any hardscape projects or. Kerry and Jill Kline: so, so in 2015 we were doing mowing enhancements, landscape install work. We were doing hardscape work. We were doing all of it. I don't know how many guys we had at the [00:04:00] time but we, we were, it was very hard. It was always hiring new people. I do still have actually some of those people on board today. We've got some guys 18 years, 15 years. You know, guys that came or left and came back. We actually had a guy that worked for us early on that just came back last year and he took a, I don't know, a 20 year like hiatus, but he came back last year. So it's awesome. But yeah, so we, we did all, all of those and, and again, we just, I didn't know how to run a business. I was just doing work. I thought that's what I was supposed to do. Working really hard sometimes, early on, especially, is working seven days a week. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Kerry and Jill Kline: and I missed my oldest son. That was a challenge that we'll get to. But I missed missed a lot of his growing up when he was really young because. Tommy Cole: And so you thought care. You thought, this is the dream, right? This is, this is, I'm just gonna work seven days a week. I'm gonna mow grass and plant shrubs and do hardscapes. [00:05:00] 'cause this is it. I'm living the dream. I'm a business owner, like, I'm willing to bet it wasn't like. It wasn't like, you know, Jill's like, what's going on here? Like, why can't we have time? Right. Kerry and Jill Kline: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, I, I know my mother-in-law, we would have picnics at her house for holidays and I couldn't go. And she's like, where can't you go? But it's just one of those I thought I needed to be working and I thought I was doing good because I had enough work that I could work in those times. But it, it, it was not right. I, I was not doing the right thing. And obviously it took me a very long time, more than usual for most people to realize that I think so. Tommy Cole: that makes sense. So then comes Amazing. Jill getting involved Tommy Cole: Jill, why did she sign up for this? Kerry and Jill Kline: Oh, I've been watching it for years from the sideline. Like he said I kind of had my career in, in healthcare management for a long time. I. [00:06:00] Wanted out of healthcare. So I, I took a position actually managing a building supply location, a branch that gave me a different exposure. I think that it comes in very useful in this industry actually. I think that I took a lot from that job and implement it in this landscape. Tommy Cole: How to deal with contractors on last Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah, Tommy Cole: Right. Kerry and Jill Kline: yeah. Tommy Cole: everything. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah. No. So so yeah, I have a lot of experience in that and it comes in useful, but just came in and, and really tried to organize what was going on on the administration, you know, administrative side of the company get some, you know, better processes, kind of defined and laid out with even running hiring ads and, and how do we respond to those and interviewing people. It's been a slow process, but we're getting there. Over the past 10 years that I've been [00:07:00] here a lot has changed. So for the. Tommy Cole: The better? Yeah. All for the better. Working with your Partner Tommy Cole: So talk. Man, 10 years. So Jill, you've been there 10 and talk about this. This is a tricky situation. 'cause you know, it's not like you can afford, right? Carrie, else coming on board that needs salary, et cetera. Like is it something of like just a need that, or Jill just goes, I gotta come in and just help out and just make things right because of. Carrie's gone. Carrie is, stress carrie's overworked, and Jill just jumped right in and said, let's go. Like, I just want to paint that picture for a lot of business owners out there that are starting young or just been in it for a very long time. You know, at one point you almost, Carrie just needs to let us guard down and go, I just need [00:08:00] help. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah, so a big part of that was. We reached that point where he needed somebody to step in and answer the phones and run kind of that day-to-day, like office type work. We were not running out of a facility at the time where there was any kind of office space. And so the thought of hiring a stranger essentially and trusting them to either work from home or actually come work in our home, I was not on board with at all. And so that's kind of what pushed us to that decision of, you know, why am I managing a branch for a building supply company when I could be doing this for our family and for our company. So it really made sense to just take the chance. It was either gonna be the worst thing or the best thing that we ever did for our marriage. I think we had a lot of conversations of. If at any point, either one of us does not like the way that this is going, we have to [00:09:00] agree that we can sit, like say to the other one, this is done. You gotta go back to work for somebody else. So luckily we haven't had that conversation yet. Tommy Cole: Yeah. No, you guys are Kerry and Jill Kline: But, but I think it also in a sense too, gave her a little flexibility with our kids. It did. We had two young boys and so it gave her a little bit more flexibility to do things instead of being tied down to a branch, she was able to work from home and I was the mom who was missing all of the school parties and You know, and. Upset about it that I wasn't able to be there. I just didn't have that flexibility when I was working for somebody else. So that was probably big. The biggest draw and perk for me was that I was gonna be able to you know, pop over to the school in the middle of the day so that I could be a part of those things for our kids. Like he said, with our oldest son, unfortunately, you know, we both we were working a lot and we missed out on a lot of things like that, but luckily 10 years [00:10:00] ago, I kind of was able to. Start showing up more and, and being at those things for him. Tommy Cole: Yeah, that makes sense. Talk about. Kerry's probably the field guy. I, I just relate to Kerry going, he's in the field all day. He's knocking stuff out and opera. Very operational driven, which is most business owners these days, right? So here comes Jill. Do, do, do, do. I'm gonna work from home and just by like, oh my gosh we gotta get a lot of things figured out as far as. And you're highly involved in the finances and the HR and the admin, you're taking over this, something that's, that sort of hasn't been given love and rightfully so because he is out there selling and producing work. Benefits of dedicating work to back of office Tommy Cole: So talk about some of the things that you've overcome to sort of strengthen it, strengthen the team, strengthen the company that you just said. We gotta get a hold of these [00:11:00] things. And I, and, and reason why I'm asking this is a lot of owners out there that are figuring that out. It could be. single owner and it could have 10 employees at this point, and they're at a breaking point on what to do. Kerry and Jill Kline: Absolutely. Tommy Cole: you help carry in this situation? Kerry and Jill Kline: Just getting organized. Like I said we started just different processes with even hiring people. ?Turnover is, is huge in this industry. You can't hire anybody that walks through the door. You've gotta hire for your culture, which first you have to define what that culture is. So doing that. Deciding who was a good fit for our company, having to let some people go that we're not a good fit that we're just dragging everybody else down. Running those hiring ads, staying on top of calling people you know, within 24 hours, getting them in for interviews and building that team up was one of the most important things that we started giving time to. Unfortunately when you're an owner operator and you're out in the field, you don't have time [00:12:00] for those thing, those things. As far as even the finances of the business, having set days of the month that you're pushing out all of your reoccurring maintenance, billing, staying on top of your landscape and hardscape billing so that it's done you've gotta stay on top, top of your cash flow. Because when you realize that you have a cash flow problem, it's too late. You've gotta get ahead of that, stay on top of your invoicing. So those were probably the most important things, just making sure that clients our customer service is really important. We were a word of mouth company up until two, three years ago. We had never paid a marketing company to do anything for us. And so our reputation is extremely important. It's what's grown the company pretty much to the size that it is right now. Was just making sure that we were staying on top of the client phone calls and emails. Getting back to people. I can't tell you how many clients hire us because they'll tell me you're the first person to answer your phone. Or the first person to return my voicemail or [00:13:00] email. They're shocked when it's a live person that they can talk to that same day. You know, even scheduling meetings and showing up to the meetings, running a, running a calendar getting that organized. And I tell people, we're not the cable company. I'm not gonna give you a four hour window. I'm gonna give you a specific time, and that's what time, you know, an account manager is going to be there for your meeting. People are busy and so being respectful of their time has has, Tommy Cole: Yeah. Kerry and Jill Kline: been a great impact on us. Tommy Cole: Carrie, anything to add there? That's just a, you know, any advice for people like that that says, man, I'm the op sales guy. I need someone to help. It's almost like you've gotta hire someone that's Kerry and Jill Kline: I was. Tommy Cole: opposite of you. Kerry and Jill Kline: You know, if you don't have a wife that can come in and do it, you need to hire somebody. And Yeah. your buddy thinks, oh, I can't afford that person, but you can't afford not to have that person. Mm-hmm. And it truly is, I mean, through the years, the equipment, oh, I don't think I can afford that. As soon as we got it, we need two or three of 'em now. You know, that person we [00:14:00] didn't think we could afford. As soon as we got 'em, we're like, man, why didn't we do that five years ago? 10 years ago? And so it's always, you know, just realizing that you need those people to help you. You can't do it all by yourself. You think you can, but nobody can. Tommy Cole: Yeah, Kerry and Jill Kline: You can't do it. Good. At least. Tommy Cole: Yeah, love it. It's almost like you two. Take it for multiple business owners or spouses, doesn't matter. But you guys have a trust, and I've seen that over the years where good at the ops side, the equipment producing the work, you know, managing the crews, but he also relies on Jill Go, man, if we had this machine it would work best. Can we have this machine? What do you think? Right. Because Carrie's initial reaction is just go get the machine and I don't really care, and we'll figure it out later. Trust Your Partner Tommy Cole: I know this is a sensitive subject that's at one point, but now it really works, Carrie. Right. Explain the dynamic of having that trust with each other. Kerry and Jill Kline: [00:15:00] I mean, at the end of the day with a husband and wife, you have to have that trust because it, I mean, your family is counting on it. I hate to say it. And so, the, the hard thing was, yeah, going back to the equipment, like sh we, neither of us really knew for a long time, can we afford another truck? Can we afford another skid steer, whatever it may be. But we looked at financials or Jill looked at financials like, yeah, we got a lot of money, we can afford it. So that went on for a long time before we truly got things straightened out and hired a functional CFO. So. Tommy Cole: There you go. There you go. Someone even smarter than both of you two to watch the finances was a huge hire. Kerry and Jill Kline: that's something we both believe in, is trying to find those people smarter than you to help you out. Right? 'cause you can't do it yourself. You can't do what you don't know. Yeah. So, and if you hire a good fractional CFO, they'll find a way to pay for themselves easily. Tommy Cole: Yes. Yeah. Was that a hard decision, Jill? First? Kerry and Jill Kline: At first it was, I met with him. The, the [00:16:00] guy that we ultimately did hire, I met with him and two others. And I think it took me almost a year before I actually. Signed up with, with the one that I thought would be the best fit for us. And that's we've been with him for over a year, a year, just over a year now, and couldn't be happier. I I'm very glad that we made that decision and that we have Jim to help us make those hard decisions now. And you also, as a business owner, you don't have a lot of people telling you no. And and you need that, I don't always listen. You know, but he'll, he can give me his opinion. There are times he says no, and sometimes I just have to listen to my gut. But there are times that I take his advice and I'm like, he's probably right. He knows more about this than I do. You need somebody playing devil's advocate because you do what you think isn't necessarily right. Just 'cause you want it really, really bad doesn't mean it's gonna work, so right. Tommy Cole: and at, at this [00:17:00] point you hired a mentor that is quite, and frankly like than you guys. Like no different than what I would do. The same is like we need someone at high level, Jill's probably great at like basic bookkeeping and putting things in the system, billing. Invoices, collecting money, like just generic things that we all kind of do. But I need someone at that next level how the business is functioning. And it's okay to reach out to people that are much smarter than you. 'cause they're on your team. They can mentor you and show you, and it's been a great relationship for, for this past year. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she, Jill doesn't have an accounting degree. You know, we don't have business degrees or business backgrounds or any kind of finance background. So again, you need to find that person that does to help you. So. Tommy Cole: take It makes a lot of sense. I know that you guys have been, you know, wrangling with that CFO fractional for a while and once you committed, you saw a really big difference and know it's something that Kerry and Jill Kline: Well, it's, Tommy Cole: know, you, you'll never let it go. [00:18:00] It may be a different, a different system or person as you get larger or small, what just depends. But you'll always have someone at that level Kerry and Jill Kline: it's another one you think you can't afford, but now we realize we can't afford not to have it. Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so then something happened three, seven years ago. Why join ACE Peer Groups Tommy Cole: You're like, I don't even know how this even happened, but you decide to join a peer group. was the, what was the reason to join? That's gotta be kind of scary. I, I, I would think now that I've been in this program for a while, but what the, who made the call? Kerry and Jill Kline: I'll be honest, four years ago we kind of hit a plateau and and Jill and I had a heart to heart is one of those where it was like, we have to do something. Mm-hmm. The business was kind of stagnant. I think we were stuck for a while, right? Over a million dollars, but we were just like stuck. We didn't know what to do. We were both working our butts off and we honestly didn't know where to go. So we sat down. First thing we did was we actually decided to hire a business consultant. We hired a business consultant, brought [00:19:00] that consultant in, and, we did some real, we, we learned some things from them and we, we just didn't, it didn't last long. We didn't click with them, so it didn't last long. This was in the fall, I think, four years ago. Mm-hmm. So, you know, we learned some stuff from there and we, and we were like, okay, well what's next? It came February and, and I was reading some article and I saw this conference, the Grow conference, and we had never been before, so it was in Nashville, Tennessee. And I said something to Jill about it, and I, and neither of us ever been to Nashville, so we're like, Hey, let's go. Tommy Cole: Why not? Kerry and Jill Kline: Case scenario. We're gonna to Nashville. In Nashville. And so we went to this GROW conference the whole time we're at this conference, we're seeing like something about ACEs and we don't know what it is. They got better seating, they got this, they got that. We don't know what it's, and so there was a, like a cocktail. Hour where you could learn more about it. And that's actually where we met you, Tommy. Yep. But there was a cocktail hour [00:20:00] and what we learned in that hour it seemed something that we, we wanted to try. But the issue was in two weeks we had to be in New Orleans at Discovery. Well, we're in Nashville right now, and it was already. Yeah. we already taken ourselves outta work when her and I were both heavy in the day to day and we had already missed work to go to this conference. And now we're gonna go in two weeks and miss work again. To go to discovery in New Orleans. Jill said to me, she said, if we do this, you have to promise you're gonna implement things. And so for years and years we went to industry conferences and seminars and I just, we learned a lot, but never implemented things. And so it was just like, yeah, me and her were getting, I guess, smarter to a certain extent, but we were never doing anything with it. So I promised I would we finished up a, a great grow in Nashville though, and OSI was amazing and. And then we moved on and two weeks later we were in New [00:21:00] Orleans in a haunted hotel. And Tommy Cole: Yep. Kerry and Jill Kline: we don't find that out until the last day after we slept there for two days. But We were in a haunted hotel and we were kind of blown away with. I guess what this was all about, what peer groups, ace, peer groups were all about. It just, we didn't know that business side, like I said before. Yeah. We don't come from a business background. I, I was a landscaper, you know, I, I like to build things, I like to work out in the field. I like to work hard. Didn't know a lot of these things. And so it really opened our eyes to what, what's out there and the opportunities out there. When we went to New Orleans, we sat in a room with with our peer group that ended up forming. You know, you guys formed that group and, and left all of us together. We'd never had an experience of sitting with other business owners and talking openly. And that honestly. Tommy Cole: same things that you're going through. They're going Kerry and Jill Kline: Yes. Yes. And [00:22:00] so it just, it it, it changed our entire perspective on on growing the business and finding these people that we felt like we could help them and they could help us. And you know, we were still with them and have made some lifelong friends from that group, so. Great. Tommy Cole: an awesome group. It literally got formed out. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah. Tommy Cole: discovery and it continued on. It's still continuing on to this day. It's been pretty fascinating to see. Kerry and Jill Kline: Shout out to. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Ace Destiny, that's part of your group. That It's a group, but I, I actually help facilitate that a little bit. So it's an amazing group, a grazing group of people that have been sharing a ton of information and growing. Benefits of the implementation of sofware Tommy Cole: So tell me about. The last few years. What are some things that you have learned or you've, we talked about this a week or two ago while we were out on site. You guys have accomplished a lot of Kerry and Jill Kline: Mm-hmm.[00:23:00] Tommy Cole: Like, let's tip your hat real quick and say, yeah, we've got these few things developed and we never thought we could. Kerry and Jill Kline: Software for me. Software. Tommy Cole: About that. You, we've had a conversation about this. Probably from day one Kerry and Jill Kline: yeah. Yeah. So. Tommy Cole: Talk about your experience with software before and what it is like now. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah. So care, years and years ago, I don't Carrie went to some seminar at Ohio Cat and he comes home and says, I signed up for this software called LMN. Tommy Cole: You're like, oh no. Kerry and Jill Kline: Can you help me? I like learn this and figure this out. And at the time I was still working full-time, you know, somewhere else, and I'm like, what? So we never did anything with it. I was, I was able to get what I should charge per hour. Yeah, roughly. It was, it was still when Mike Laski was teaching the class. So it was very, very early on. Yeah, it was it was, I thought it was the coolest thing and I wanted to do it, but again, you get tied down into the day to day and [00:24:00] there's no way you have time to do it. So fast forward three years ago we joined this peer group and, you know, they're like, you've gotta implement software. You have to just do it. So we did signed up with LMN, got everything implemented up and running. It continues to improve the way that we run our business daily, every day. You know, I thought I couldn't get rid of the stupid time clock, you know? Tommy Cole: Oh yeah, the manual time Kerry and Jill Kline: Manual time clock and these time cards. And I, I couldn't wrap my head around like, well, how else do you, you know, pay these people? It's in LMN, like what in the world was wrong with me? I look back and I'm like, what was wrong with me that I could not figure out you know, how to implement this and do it. But weve done it. We continue to do it, continue to, to implement all the things that LMN and, and software have to offer. We've got a couple other software programs that we're running, it has just night and day difference in estimating absolutely. Just even payroll files being sent [00:25:00] off to accounting. I mean, it just makes life so much easier. I don't know how we did it before. I say before we were literally on paper. Everything, everything, literally our schedule was on a calendar and Jill would sit there with a pencil and an eraser. And it was insane. And now it's on a tv, you know, and it's easily moved around, right? Anytime needed. We can see how far out we're scheduled. We, I mean, it's, it just blows me away. Now everybody in the company can see the schedule. It's not just me, it's not just Carrie. Everybody has access to it. They can see where they're going what's going on for the next year. If they wanna sit there and skip through the entire year, it's, it's up. Tommy Cole: love it. So you guys have been with me for a long time and I don't care what software you use, just freaking use it, right? You've heard that over and over and over, and you guys just. Hey, this is what we have into the peer groups. This is, we just need to use it Kerry and Jill Kline: Right. Tommy Cole: of the day and just use it. It's taught you a lot about job costing, scheduling, who owns the schedule. We talk about all these [00:26:00] things. Kerry and Jill Kline: Absolutely. Tommy Cole: Financials are available, budget versus actual hour. Hours are available, and. There's templates you, you know, your costs. Like, oh, skid steer insert. Wow. How Versus Carrie would estimate, I don't know, it's probably like 200 bucks Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah, there was a lot of work. Tommy Cole: yeah, so it's that estimating was, I say software was a game changer. I say the second one was a game Changers, probably your finances, Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah. Tommy Cole: just talked about. Fractional, CFO, an awareness of what numbers are probably over the course of multiple years. Like what are numbers? I think we say all the time, know your Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah, yeah. Tommy Cole: but I don't think that's clear enough. Kerry and Jill Kline: No, I don't either. You. Tommy Cole: like yeah, you know, no safety while you're driving. Well, well, like what is safety while you're driving like you need. So what else is there? How software can help the team in the field Tommy Cole: Is there anything else that you've implemented, whether it be like in the operations, in the field team or, or whatever. Kerry and Jill Kline: Well two, with the software, with Element [00:27:00] especially, and again, any software is, is, is better than none, but it, it is a scorecard for your team so they can see how they're doing every single day. So on the Element Crew app, they can see what they are versus, you know, their actual hours versus budgeted hours. Before we had nothing like that, so they were just going to work every day to go to work every day. Day. So now they have a scoreboard in front of 'em to see if they're winning or losing. That has been an absolutely huge game changer. Another one is sharing your financials. And so that was something we would've never even thought of, ever thought of. And now, I mean, we have a board that shows every single month what our top line is compared to last year, the same month. And then right next to that, we have our gross profit margin, our net profit for each individual month. So it's up there so everybody, again can see that scoreboard of how the company's doing as a whole. I think that's extremely important because people just come to work to come to work. Otherwise, if they don't, you know, if, if you put that in front of 'em, they have a reason to want to come to work and a reason to want to do [00:28:00] better. I. And so we talk about that a lot. And we just had a financial meeting a couple weeks ago with, with our leadership team, and it's literally going through a p and l and letting them understand what a p and L looks like and what every single line on that p and l means, so everybody's aware of it. So it's not just Jill and I it's starting to teach the team so they can. Tommy Cole: this is fascinating topic. I get this a lot. And Carrie jump in. Or Jill, there was a concern to share your numbers. I know it was there and everyone has the concern. So what did it overcome? What did, what did you have to decide? Say we have to do this. One, two, what do you share and what does that provide the team? And you now versus back then it was nothing there a lot of companies are not doing this or reluctant and very fair questions, right? Like I don't wanna, but most times the reason why they didn't wanna share is 'cause it's not [00:29:00] accurate. Kerry and Jill Kline: I think so. Yeah. You're afraid to put it out there when you don't understand it yourselves. So I think us having a fractional CFO, so we, we understand what we're getting ready to share with everyone. Breaking it down and, and showing them yeah, we may charge this much per man hour for you to be on the job, but we're breaking that down and explaining what overhead is showing them, you know. What's left at the end of the year what that net profit truly is, and, and helping them to understand what the company is left with and, and that we need that so that we can, can continue to grow. But really putting it up there because it's not just, this is what Carrie and Jill made at the end of the year. This is what CNS did, this is what the team did. And when you start looking at your business that way, it's not your business, it's the team's business. And that mind shift it, it. Help us get over that hurdle of wanting to keep things private. It's [00:30:00] why at the end of the day, those people, they should know what's going on at the company that they're trusting is healthy enough for them to stay at. You're asking these people to commit to building a career with you. You should be willing to show them your financial data and, and show them are, are you financially healthy or not? Absolutely. Tommy Cole: There's so many good reasons. This and, and what if we took the same reasons? That's not in the professional career, but in the personal level, right. Understanding that at another level makes a lot of sense in your personal life. And you know, and then if you go back to the business side, I wanna know how all of us entire team can come together as a unit when times are tough to bring us out of the hole or. Say it rains for three straight weeks and we gotta get one week where we really have to bring our a game for one week and work extra hours in order to try to hit something for that month. [00:31:00] if they had that financial awareness, they would understand it versus, oh, what's, why are we gotta do this? There's a reason behind all of it to understand. So I, I'm a huge fan. We talk about it all the time. It's very scary at the end of the day. But it's also not scary. It's more scarier when you don't do it. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah. Tommy Cole: Open up the book and Kerry and Jill Kline: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: what I would recommend is get with a bookkeeper, Kerry and Jill Kline: Yes. Tommy Cole: understand it, get it organized. Get your chart of accounts figured out, make sure you're getting things in the right bucket. You guys had to learn a lot of that stuff too. Kerry and Jill Kline: Absolutely. Yeah. Tommy Cole: with a professional bookkeeper or a fractional CFO or someone in that industry. Preferably service based industry. Mentor you two to get the better numbers and, and portray it out to the team. Kerry and Jill Kline: So, and I think, I think another thing with it too is, and, and Jill and I have talked about is that everybody thinks you're the secret millionaire. So I think it's very important to show them where all that money's going. Again, [00:32:00] based off of, hey, what we're charging per hour. They think, oh my gosh, you, you guys are making so much money. Well, we, you need to literally break it down so they understand where that's going. You know we do the penny thing where you take a hundred pennies and then you say, Hey, we're gonna do 50% gross profit margin this year. You take 50 away. Okay, well that was your, you know, that was your. God, I'm sorry. Material. Your labor, material, and equipment. And so now you have 50 cents left over. Well, now we're gonna take your overhead out and what do you have left over? You know, we did 8% last year, so you literally take 'em all away. But eight pennies outta every dollar CNS makes you have eight pennies. And so for them to understand that and see that in front of them, we do that. Our spring kickoff last two years or three years, and it's, it's been a game changer. They actually understand that and they, they, they don't think you're that secret millionaire anymore. Yeah. They realize, Hey, we're in this together and now they're bought in and they wanna find ways to be more efficient and cut that waste so that they have more pennies left on their table next spring, because we explain pennies. Help with growth and pennies help with growth for them. So we can give them raises or we can send them to another training, whatever it [00:33:00] may be. We can't do that if we don't have profit. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Love it. Love it. So the top three things are bookkeeping. Fractional CFO was a game changer of a hire. It's not your strong point. Now you've got that strong Kerry and Jill Kline: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: Relationship software, software, software. Pick one. I don't care. Use Kerry and Jill Kline: Yeah. Tommy Cole: to the best of its ability. They will take you somewhere much more better off than you can take it by your own with spreadsheets and manual clocks on the wall and guess it guesstimating and all that sort of stuff. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yep. Tommy Cole: that, that clock on the wall was a hint for somebody that's out there. You, you know who they Kerry and Jill Kline: Yes, I know who he is. Tommy Cole: Yeah. And so hopefully they're listening right now. And, and the last but not least is open book Financial management was a game changer. Kerry and Jill Kline: Absolutely. Yeah. Tommy Cole: are, those are massive undertakings that you would've never, you know, sort of. And then not only that, your peers kind of helped guide you with feedback and [00:34:00] questions and other peers outside of your peer group Kerry and Jill Kline: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: And it's going to industry events, talking more and getting the. The comfort level to share all that data and implement it back at your, at your place. Kerry and Jill Kline: Another, another thing that I feel like was a big game changer too, is for many years Jill and I did everything putting managers in place. Like we didn't have, I mean, we had some basic people here or there, but now we literally have a manager. For every division we run. And then we have, you know, account managers, we, you know, we have these different people to manage these things so we don't have to worry about them. They then report to us and we have our one-on-one meetings, which is another game changer, one-on-one meetings you should do every week. And those have been really a huge help in our growth and our continued growth. So. Tommy Cole: real quick, division managers, can you line those out for me so we can understand? Kerry and Jill Kline: right now we have a maintenance manager, landscape manager, operations manager, project manager, [00:35:00] account manager. So we have those managers in place. Tommy Cole: and then they have scoreboards or scorecards or KP something to measure. It's probably not perfect. I get it. You're working on it, but the ability that you're working on it so they know if they're winning and losing. You talk about this all the time, so you're working on that. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Balance scorecards. So that's, that's where we're going. Tommy Cole: Okay. What's business like today? You're off to the races, you're going to the beach, sign up, you're moving on. Kerry and Jill Kline: What? Tommy Cole: perfectly. Right. Kerry and Jill Kline: Business today. Business is busy. Busy is busy. Mid spring, so we're busy. Our H two B guys arrived a week ago. Yep. So that keeps me very busy while they're here. Getting them settled in springtime, we're just trying to dial in the crews for the season. We like to get those figured out, dialed in so that we're not switching people around. Yep. So [00:36:00] we're working through that. Who works best together? We're still doing a little bit of hiring actually. So that takes up quite a bit of my time. But our, our backlog, our backlogs are still out quite a bit, and so we're trying to work on that hiring piece to try to strength those backlogs down for our clients. So, so that's a thing. But yeah, we as a company today, we're just busy. No longer am I out in the field. Doing anything. You know, I got in this because I love working outside, love working my hands. I sit behind a computer most days now and that's what I do. And you as an owner, as you grow, you definitely evolve and change and you have to evolve and change. But yeah, my daily duties are completely different than what they were five. Tommy Cole: I, I, I remember you guys three or four years ago, and I could see it on your face that you guys were just buried in the business. I mean, whether it was taking phone calls, Kerry and Jill Kline: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: I gotta knock out this estimate real quick. [00:37:00] While you're traveling. I'll never forget this, and, and, and the entire group is the same way, right? At three years ago now you have a confidence level to leave for three days because have a management team that's running things. They know mostly what they need to do. You're still working on it you have the ability to go work. On the business somewhere else, come back, bring back some nuggets, make a few tweaks and keep going, and that you've elevated those people up. Whereas three years ago, Carrie, there was no chance you would ever take, ever, ever, ever do that. And I want, I want the listeners to understand that this Carrie is like 95% of the audience out there. whether you are an owner or a manager, they're out there. And it's hard. It's hard as hell to run this business because these landscapers are the most passionate people in this [00:38:00] industry by far. We love what we do. We just get buried in the minutia of the business and don't where to go. So take carrie's advice and just get with somebody, a mentor, get a peer group, figure out what you need to go get and go get it. I don't know. Call Carrie, find 'em up. They will be glad to help you at some point. Kerry and Jill Kline: And, and I can tell you, you know, when we were scared to go for that, you know, second three days in New Orleans. Now if you look at how much Jill and I travel to industry events, we, I mean, we're always gone somewhere, especially, I mean, this time, well, up until this point of year, I don't know how many places we've already been this year, but it's incredible. You have to continue developing yourself as a business owner. Mm-hmm. And developing your people 'cause. Your business is only gonna go as far as the people in it, and if you don't continue to develop it, you're gonna stop growing. So. Tommy Cole: Amazing. Yeah. You two have grown so much in the last few years and it's always been nice to see you guys develop [00:39:00] into, to great people. What, what is, what is any last minute advice for anyone that's out there, whether you're a, a a hundred thousand dollars company or a hundred million dollar company because you have something, is it something that is there a quote or is this something that you just live and die by or it just. what, what are you gonna leave with our audience? Kerry and Jill Kline: Do what you say you're gonna do Tommy Cole: Ugh. Kerry and Jill Kline: one of our core values. That's it. Can, it's, it's good for everything, every aspect of your business, whether it's something you told a customer, a coworker yourself, your spouse you have to do it. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Yeah. Kerry and Jill Kline: And you can do more than you ever thought you could. Don't let limiting beliefs hold you back. Tommy Cole: That yeah. And, and I am, I'm the caveat to that because there's that little birdie over here on your shoulder that I talked about at some point. Or the devil you could say that says, I'm gonna go do this. And then what [00:40:00] happens after you say, I'm gonna go do this? They start talking that you can't do it. don't have time. It doesn't mean it. You're not smart enough. No one else does it this way, right? All those things start to just talk and you gotta go, this is what's right for my business. This is what's right for my team and my family. Kerry and Jill Kline: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: I gotta just do it. I think we just talk a lot about things you guys learned that over the early on in peer groups or even travel. I don't really care, just out everywhere. It's like we're gonna, Kerry and Jill Kline: Absolutely. Tommy Cole: and then the gonna never happens. Kerry and Jill Kline: You can't wait till winter time to do everything you have to. Tommy Cole: my gosh. Hundred percent agree. Kerry and Jill Kline: We used to think, oh, we'll wait till winter time and do it. You can't. It's gotta be continuous improvement every day. It's gotta be, we are just as busy in the winter as we are in June, July. It doesn't matter now. Our year is, it's the same every single month now, so, Tommy Cole: yeah. Just do it and don't overthink Kerry and Jill Kline: right. And one more last minute advice. Take care of your team. Take care of your people. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Kerry and Jill Kline: I mean, it's [00:41:00] all about your people. Yeah. At the end of the day, grow your company to give them more opportunity. Grow them to give them a career. Again, that that is my why. Our why is to take care of our people and see them grow. So Tommy Cole: When you invest in the team, everything else just works. Kerry and Jill Kline: it does. They will take care of your clients. They will take care of whatever needs to be taken care of Tommy Cole: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Amazing, amazing show. Lots of good feedback and takeaways. You guys, Carrie started out just pushing a mower, just left school and said, I'm outta here. Kerry and Jill Kline: Pretty much. Tommy Cole: if it wasn't for some industry help and, you know, some peer groups and some people and some organizations and some software connections along the way they would not be here right now. And they, you know, who knows where Kerry would be, you know, kind of suffering at the end of the day, just kind of doing his thing. And so. Kudos to you both for, you know, bringing your A [00:42:00] game at all times and lots of fun. Kerry and Jill Kline: Yes. Tommy Cole: lots of fun and lots of late nights celebrations along the way. But it's been a pleasure having you guys on the Kerry and Jill Kline: That's networking. Tommy, that's networking. Tommy Cole: Great friends. that? Kerry and Jill Kline: I said that's networking. I don't know what you're talking about. The late nights. So sometimes those are the best conversations. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Totally. That's when, all the issues are figured out is late Kerry and Jill Kline: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Good stuff. Well, thank you for being a guest on the show. It's been awesome. You too. Best of luck and hope you guys crush it. Kerry and Jill Kline: All right. Thank Tommy Cole: All right. Kerry and Jill Kline: you. John: Ready to take the next step? Download our free Profitability Scorecard to quickly create your own baseline financial assessment and uncover the fastest ways to improve your business. Just go to McFarlinStanford.com/scorecard to get yours today To learn more about McFarlin Stanford our best in class peer groups and other services go to our website at McFarlinStanford.com And don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. See you next time on the Roots of Success.