Building Ballfields and Bonds: How Tom and Dana Groh Lead with People First

Tom and Dana Groh John: [00:00:00] The Roots of Success podcast is for the landscape professional who's looking to up their game. We're not talking lawns or grass here. We're talking about people, process, and profits. The things deep within the business that need focus to scale a successful company from hiring the right people and managing your team to improving your operations and mastering your finances. We've got a brain trust of experts to help you nurture the roots of a successful business and grow to the next level. This is The Roots of Success. Tommy Cole: Welcome to Roots of Success Podcast, and I'm your host Tommy Cole. And we have two amazing guests, my good friends and clients Mr. Tom Grow and Miss Dana grow. How are you doing? Dana and Tom Groh: We are doing great today. Thanks for inviting us onto your podcast. Tommy Cole: Yep. Tom, Tom, you, you have the floor now. How are you doing? Dana and Tom Groh: It's good. I'm trying to match your energy, so we'll see how we do. Tommy Cole: Yeah. This is all, this is gonna be a good one. Tom and Dana come from the great state of Minnesota. Did I say that right? Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, you said it right. Tommy Cole: They're a Minnesota sodding company up [00:01:00] there in the north, and they have an absolutely amazing business that they've been working on since. Early nineties. And it's a very unique business. Backgrounnd of Minnesota Sodding Company Tommy Cole: Not a lot of like planting trees and building fire features and pools. This is a very unique niche in the market, and this is what I love about it. So what, why don't, without getting too much details, Tom, I know you're just itching to say how this company got started. What is MSE all about? Give us a, give us the lowdown. Dana and Tom Groh: Oh, MSC was a started when I was 15 years old. My mom would pick up my workers with her Nissan Sentra and we'd pick 'em all up, my classmates and drop us off at our jobs that I would ride my bike to sell. And we would get the sod projects in the developments outside of Minneapolis St. Paul. And so that's how it kind of started in 1991. And I had a [00:02:00] lawn mowing business, door-to-door lawn mowing type stuff as well. And every time I needed to make a little extra money, we'd have to out a yard so that I started saying, well, why are we mowing grass if we could just keep sodding yards? And, and that's how we, that's pretty much how we started and ended our lawn mowing career. Just focus on so, and installing grass on yards. Tommy Cole: Sodding and installing grass. That's it. And so that got started at, at the ripe old age of 15, but. You carried it on. I mean, I don't know many companies that really specialize in just saw installation. Is that something that you like, got really excited about? Or, or your clients took you there and you kind of followed them? How, how did that really start the niche? Dana and Tom Groh: Well, the niche really started as first it fed a couple things. I'm kind of instant gratification, so you can instantly feel your effect at the end of a [00:03:00] job. And so a landscape projects can go on for months. Until the grass is down, nobody brings a camera out until the grass is down. And I think kind of that's how it feeds my, my inner why of the instant gratification. And it's pretty fun to, to be there right at the end of the project. We, we, we look like the heroes, even though everybody else does all the hard work before we get there. So. Tommy Cole: yeah, yeah. That's it is instant. When you put saw down, it is like. So satisfying to go from something that's just dirt or bad side to something that's so perfect. And you just wanna, like, so when you do a saw job, you just wanna like lay on it like a brand new carpet in your house. Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah. Well, I don't really necessarily lay on it, but it is fun to run through the sprinklers if it's hot. Tommy Cole: Sounds good. So years go by, right? You might have probably gotten a couple pickup trucks, a few employees. Things are rolling. Take us through that mid part of, of trying to figure out a business and, and [00:04:00] how it was going. I'm sure everything was perfect and you had no issues. Dana and Tom Groh: No, that wasn't necessarily true. Went to the University of Minnesota studied horticulture and turf emphasis in turf management. And then got outta school and that's where I met Dana. Was at the church. The church school at University of Minnesota. And then upon leaving there we both spent three years working for a large landscape contractor here in Minneapolis, St. Paul, and still doing the sod and seed work for them. Tommy Cole: Good. Dana and Tom Groh: Brought some of our workers over to that company. And that's really where we met almost all the people we work with today. And it's, they're still in our network and a lot of 'em work with us at MSC. As well as some of our customers as well are have come out of that experience. So we spent three years each in a really large landscape company. They were part of the landcare rollup, TrueGreen, Landcare, rollup, and eventually bought out by Valley Crest, Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: Type [00:05:00] organization. And just really, that was just kind of a fun, fun era to be part of. And we've been kind of chasing that feeling ever since to building something great and. And for our workers and, and our, our friends in the business, so. Tommy Cole: Yeah. So speaking of meeting Dana and, and joining in forces, Dana, did you tell me about the early days of working with your husband As far as like who does what, who's on first and who's on second, who's on third base? And this sort of, let's start a business after we've been working with a national provider. Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, that was, it was really a great experience working for a large landscape company in the Twin Cities, and that's really where we learned the commercial market. And the commercial market is so much different than the residential market. And through the experience of working for the, for that company for three years, that's when we decided that we wanted to focus on commercial work. It's just a different pace, different customer. And so then upon leaving there, that's when we upon leaving [00:06:00] there, we went back and started running Minnesota Sodding company full-time. And we did not by any means have any systems together. So we were definitely chaotic back then and it was pretty much all hands on deck. So everybody, we didn't really have a separation of duties quite, quite yet. Then, Tommy Cole: okay. Dana and Tom Groh: it was, it was a little rough going there for a while. Tommy Cole: Yeah, it's a little rough, but talk about, all over your website and all of your social media, Dana is heavily involved, whether it be operations, the financials and things. What, what, what gets you out there in the field to experience all of that? There's gotta be a lot of good, juicy stuff. Let me back up just one, one more. I wanna back up and also commend and recommend if, if you are young. I love getting experience at a national level or a large company at a college or at a high school at some point, because typically [00:07:00] those companies have some systems of some sort, right? They've gotten large for, for a reason, but you can learn on their dime a little bit, right? And, and take a few years. And my recommendation is spend three to five years learning everything you can. That's a very good knowledge base. There's systems, there's software, there's SOPs type stuff. Generally speaking at that level. And then if you wanna branch off at that time, go forward. So talk about, talk about your experience out there. I love seeing Dana out in the field. I mean, there's some fun, there's some funny videos and pictures of you wearing. I'll call 'em Beanie Hats. You may call 'em something different up north, but out there in the field and just grinding. What do the field people say about all that? Dana and Tom Groh: No. When I get the opportunity to work in the field, that's always one of my favorite days of the season. I was actually just working on the, with the crew on Monday. It wasn't very fun. The, that weather was really bad, but no, we all have [00:08:00] fun together and we just always make it a good day and. I think, you know, they don't always, like, they don't ask like, why is she out here? You know, it's, it's just we're, we work hard to be one big team and we really strive to make our team to build our bench wide. So a lot of us are able to do a lot of different things. It's not just like, I don't have to stay in the office 'cause I'm not able to run the equipment and whatnot. I can get, you know, get out there and get things done as well in the Tommy Cole: Yeah. Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: the team. Tommy Cole: Well you just gotta make sure Tom is behaving out in the field. That's probably your most observation in the field. Just making sure he is doing what he's supposed to be doing. Right. Not, Dana and Tom Groh: Right. Tommy Cole: playing. Right. Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, He doesn't, he doesn't like to miss out. I was on the same job, but they put me in the excavator, so I couldn't talk to anybody. Some distance. Yeah. Put me in a cabin, an excavator. Everybody stayed 10 Tommy Cole: The cab and we, we'll lock it from the outside. Yeah. You just keep digging. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about msc. What sets the Minnesota SOdding Company apart Tommy Cole: [00:09:00] So I, our audience is wondering like, what is this? Okay. It's not just a so install company. It's not like you're getting a pallet of square and, and ham places. Go check these people out. Unbelievable install. So tell me about what specifically you guys do. Dana and Tom Groh: Well, I guess we, we, we have a couple of different areas. So we have what we consider our new construction, which is basically large office warehouse type projects. New construction. We also have a athletic field construction division where we, we grade and build pro level ball fields as well as municipal and high schools. And even little league, we built a t-ball field and or not t-ball wiffle ball field, which is way cool. So we built a pro level wiffle ball field in South Dakota for a small town, and it's one of the coolest projects we've ever been part of. Tommy Cole: Wow. Dana and Tom Groh: So a shout out to them in South Dakota. But yeah, we travel we do some work out [00:10:00] in Phoenix as far south as Kansas City, far east as dent Detroit. We've done work all over the nation with our ball field stuff. And then we do something that we call maintenance, but no mowers. So our maintenance, no mowers is basically spraying weeds, fertilizing top dressing, slit seating, and the renovation work. Ball fields as well. So that's another piece of our business that, that we do. But yeah, we, we don't own any lawnmowers and and we do have a prairie division as well. Most of our commercial projects now have prairie and native seeding their sites, and so we have that we install prairies and then we also maintain them as well Tommy Cole: Wow. Fascinating. How to bid for projects outside of your traditional market Tommy Cole: So tell me about if you're, you're bidding work outside of the town that you live in. How does that happen? And I want our audience to understand like what, what, how. There's all, and I, I know some of this, it's per diem, [00:11:00] travel, hotel, all these things that you have to include, like tell us that learning experience that you had to figure out and then also bid. Dana and Tom Groh: well one of the hardest challenges is the fact that we've had targets that we've done that are four or five hour drives away. Yet we didn't get the ones on either side of our town that we live in. So, Tommy Cole: Wow. Dana and Tom Groh: So we'll, we'll, we'll do targets all over the us but somehow the ones that are only five miles from our shop, we don't win the bins on those, but put people in a hotel with per diems and they'll, then, they'll wanna hire us. So Don't quite understand all the ins and outs of why we get certain jobs that we don't. But almost all of our work that we get is relationship based. It's a trust, trusted relationship that we have with the contractors. You know, either the general contractors and or the landscape professionals that we work with and partner with. So almost all of our work is a partnership type quoting and [00:12:00] getting. Tommy Cole: Yeah, that's good. Dana and Tom Groh: Jobs are really interesting. A lot of times it's quick turnaround. We had our well my most memorable job that was an out of town job for an athletic field was we got a call like late morning and they said the current contractor's not able to fulfill the project and so will you guys be able to come and help us out and finish the project? So we literally were on the road By what, two or three? Yeah, two or three in after, on our way. Honor way to Kansas City and we were working the next day. yeah. Tommy Cole: wow. Dana and Tom Groh: But you know, as a company, we don't like to say no to work. We Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: figure out how to make it happen. So that was, that was quite the marathon, Tommy Cole: If it's your client, right it, you're gonna jump, jump on and go. And I think that's the thrill that both of you love is the thrill of this sort of issue or this thing that we need to accomplish. And I feel like you get the team and the morale and the equipment all together. It's almost like having a big football or baseball event that you have to [00:13:00] prepare for. I think you two love that versus the. Every single day. It's a like kind of repeat every day type deal. And that's no easy task because there's a lot of planning involved along the way. Talk about one of my most favorite projects that you guys got involved in that also had to, it's, it's it your, in your state, talk about the Minnesota Twins target field and how you got that contract. And then I think you were selected to be the. Labor force, right? Labor behind, all behind that entire project. Talk about that for a bit. Dana and Tom Groh: Well, we're gonna probably ruffle a few feathers with the story, but the start, the early, early part of it is that I had heard that in order to bid on the target ball field construction, you had to be in a a pre-bid meeting. That hap took place a year before the work was scheduled to go. Even though we weren't qualified to build the field, I still got myself in the room. Everybody was in the room and you had to [00:14:00] sign in and there was a piece of paper that went around the room with everyone's phone number and email and name on it. And after the meeting, I went up to the secretary and I asked if she could make a photocopy of that list. And I called everybody on that list and saw and asked who was gonna bid on that and asked that we would be their partners. So that's really how we entered into the athletic field world, was just us sitting in a meeting and you know, basically like knocking on doors. So door knocking as I started that in the nineties on my bike with door hangers. That's basically what we did to get the into the Minnesota Ball. They're brand new Target Field Stadium. The other piece that really worked out well with us is that we have a great relationship. We are a union contractor and we are by choice. And we absolutely love our partnership with our local, local 5 63. And, but what the it is is typically in the sports turf world, it's, it's traveling. Companies [00:15:00] will travel from out in fields Incorporated out of Atlanta, Georgia was awarded the contract. They awarded the sod installation to go to Grass Turf Farms in Colorado. And basically our union blocked both of them from being able to bring their labor in. They said you have to hire Minnesota Labor. But we had great relationship with our union and they said, you'll have a great partner if you work with MSC to do the work. And so that's where our partnerships formed and those things the, the com, both companies non-union companies coming in the town, we ended up following them all over the country. After the Minnesota Twins. They, they're like, this is a, a great experience. And that's really what kind of kicked off and started our, our career in sports turf. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Relationships, relationships, relationships. Tom Dana, you two are probably some of the best I've ever seen. Maintain that from a, from a work standpoint and a and a personal standpoint. [00:16:00] Why are you two so good at this? Dana and Tom Groh: I think I'm, this is kind of fun. I think you have to really respect who brought you to the dance. I think both in personal and at work, I, I, we find it interesting at work is so many people will chase once they get in and they'll try to box somebody out. And that creates a trust issue and fear of somebody introducing you to their customer, thinking that you're gonna try to take 'em. And we have spent our entire career respecting who brought us to the dance and who brought us to the table, and we protect that relationship. Highly. And I just, I, I preach that to our workers and our, our family and our kids who are starting their own businesses as well. And we just like, you really have to protect those relationships and your reputation Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: definitely. Tommy Cole: Dana, what, what, what do you, what do you have to say? Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely important to protect your relationships, not only with your customers, but also with your vendors, because [00:17:00] your vendors. Are the ones that are ultimately part of the success of you getting your job, job done job done on time as well. So there, I mean, sometimes I don't think the vendors get enough credit for what they do either. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Yeah. And it's not about, this is how we a lot of times treat our vendors. Hey, Bob, and I need to get a price. I need a price right now. What can you best do for me? Or thanks, click bye. Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, exactly. Tommy Cole: Right. That happens, especially in the commercial world. I've been a general contractor. I've been in dirt construction for a long time and that's what that is. And it should not be that. It should be, it should be a two-way relationship. I'm gonna put in everything I got and it's more about than just picking up the phone, getting gimme a price. 'cause I've been on that side of the fence and it's rough. It is cutthroat, it's nasty, it's ugly. People yell and scream. About the bottom and you guys aren't a part of that, and it's proof that relationship and nice people win in commercial construction. It can be [00:18:00] done at the end of the day and you guys have proven it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell a little story and Tom's gonna love this. Tom's probably like, oh my gosh, what did I do when we met? We met in Orlando. You'll remember this story randomly at an element conference. Super fun. Lots of people, good energy. And for some reason Tom stood out. I don't have any idea why Tom stood out. Maybe the red shirt or maybe just his awesome personality and relationship building skills. For whatever reason, my dad's name was Tom, so maybe there was a connection there and I was trying to get you guys involved in h peer groups and we're talking about traveling and all this thing and. Where are you going next? I feel like this was November-ish, maybe October, November. I can't remember. Maybe December. Dana and Tom Groh: yeah, it was winter. Tommy Cole: so we're talking and he says, when's your next trip? And I said, I'm going to where am I, Eugene, Oregon.[00:19:00] Right. I was going to Eugene, Oregon. And he said, man, that must be fun. That's great. And you made me a challenge. Right. A challenge was great. You're going to Eugene. And I told you about the hotel I was staying at. It's cool. Like a college type hotel and called the graduate and I told you all about it and I said, there's this famous duck there when you walk in. It's got Nike all over for the University of Oregon. And he said, sounds good. I need you to go take a picture in front of that duck and if you can do that, I'll jump into the peer groups and I. Bet's on and you didn't know that my number two strength is competition. So when Tom said, I bet you they see if you can do that and see what happens. Well, fast forward, right? A few months go by and my trip gets completely canceled and I'm free. I feel like the only thing that I had to do was get a picture in front of the duck in Eugene, Oregon. Yeah, I had one job. I don't [00:20:00] care about how the event one and the meeting went, it literally was get a picture in front of the dock and I was kind of freaking out that I wasn't gonna get my opportunity. And so I had to like text Tom and go, man, we, we got snowed in and, and we can't get there, that it's iced over. And he goes. I still need a picture of the duck man. I just what I need. So a few months later we, we were able to rebook the trip and I got my official picture in front of the duck, sent it to Tom. You might have forgotten about it. I don't know at that point. But at that point I feel like there was a bond, there was a trust. And since then, honestly, Tom has been a really good, genuine friend of mine along the way. And it's been awesome to see. Him grow and develop and have fun and, and let loose and, and all that. So I, I, it's, it's kind of a funny story about, I think he challenged me a little bit and said if you can go do this, then I feel like our relationship was was, was in the [00:21:00] hands, Dana and Tom Groh: Anybody can coach, right? There's a lot of coaches in the world that if there's, how many coaches are gonna go take a selfie with the duck? So it's, it's kind of, Tommy Cole: That, that would be me. That would Dana and Tom Groh: we, Tommy Cole: Oregon Ducks. There you go. Um, Dana and Tom Groh: to put our vendors through the paces and that's just to build trust and to see if they're gonna follow through. Tommy Cole: it's like a little scavenger hunt, you know, a little bit of a test to see, see what you can build there. INtroducing management software Tommy Cole: talk about software. All right. Let, let's get a little, little, little juicy here. You guys have been involved in a, in in LMM for a while, I believe, but really got hot and heavy here recently, maybe in the last couple years. It felt like you kind of doubled down on it more talk about, give our audience some advice or some awareness of what that meant to you and your team. Maybe it was a bit tricky at first on getting buy-in from the team. It might have been buy-in from your own self. [00:22:00] Talk about that a little bit. Dana and Tom Groh: So I think we joined LMN right around like 2013 ish, give or take a year. And so we were at to the point where we knew it just couldn't be the two of us anymore, so we needed to bring on more people and there was no way we'd be able to successfully bring on anybody without having some sort of program. To be able to start streamlining MSC. Yeah. Which we had no systems. I mean it was like, I, well I refer to 'em as our Cal Cowboy area era. It was basically like, you know, look at a job and you'd be like, oh, that looks like a $3,000 job. There was no like, serious thought behind it. I mean, not always, but a lot of the times it would be just off the cuff, like, oh, it looks like it's, you know, this many dollars kind, kind of a thing. And so then we started searching around. We actually hired somebody for I think probably about a year. And they were working on building us a program in an internal program. And then I think it was like over [00:23:00] the winter we just started doing Google searches. And Tom found LMN through just doing a Google search. And so then we started messing around or researching their budget. Started working with their budget, did some estimating. Then pretty much from then on is when we started using LMN, but it really centralized MSC, all of our information was in one spot. We were able to confidently start bidding work and, you know, and winning it and not having to think like, oh, are we gonna be behind ahead? And and that's also the time that we really started digging into learning our numbers. Tommy Cole: Okay. Dana and Tom Groh: We got into the business because we love, you know, we love turf, we love landscaping. Right? And I know for me personally, I, I wasn't thinking long term as a business owner. It was all about just doing the fun work. And I mean, honestly, our business was struggling before LMN and so that just really helped turn us around. So along with [00:24:00] LMN really tuning into LMN, we also hired a business consultant. Between the two of them, it was a total game changer for us. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Yeah. So. What has it game changer for you guys? Is it, is it, can you gimme specifics on like, production? Tom? Maybe you're the person. Like, tell me what, what was the game changer in operations or production like? Is there a system, is there, is there data that you guys use? That said how, always ask the question how we know we're winning. Right? And you probably know Dana and Tom Groh: Mm, Tommy Cole: As before it was like. How to know if you are winning Tommy Cole: You know, if you're winning, if hopefully the client likes it and you hit the deadline, Dana and Tom Groh: mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: there's some missing parts to that, right? Dana and Tom Groh: Yes. So there's a couple pieces I'm gonna sideline just for ever so second, but Mike Laski was our first coach and he introduced me a KPI that I did not have, that we didn't have [00:25:00] of revenue per hour. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: As a metric on how to judge how successful a day was a project was as our revenue per hour. And when revenue per hour was introduced, the light bulb went off. And it was similar to, I read Good the book, good to Great around the same era, and Walgreens was the profit per customer and CVS or Snyder's, I think at the time or whatever the company their competitor was, was their profit per square foot. And so those guys were battling it out in the pharmaceutical, you know, selling pharmaceuticals to people. And Walgreens was building a store on all the best corners, and Snyder's was off in the corner, you know, on the cheap real estate. And so all of a sudden having the revenue per hour introduced was a life a game changer. And then we were able to take that operationally into, well, what revenue, what work pays the highest revenue per hour work? So that became a [00:26:00] judge every year since 2012 you know, we've just been watching our revenue per hour go up every year and, and every season we take whatever our average revenue per hour was the previous year, and we make that the floor. So everything that we bid this year is just above average work, Tommy Cole: Next step up. Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: you know, and we go up another 10 bucks an hour for this year, and then all of a sudden next year, guess what the floor is now, this year's average. So that has been the best operational thing we do is to recognize, and we've left some markets, there's some things we used to run the heavy, heavy landscape roll off recycling program where we haul the landscape bins, they call 'em dumpsters bins. And we would be recycling landscape waste for all sorts of landscape contractors while it, it doesn't pay the revenue per hour like some of our other work does now. So. It's too low. So we've, it's even dictated some of the markets that we are in [00:27:00] and the types of services we offer because it's just, it can't compete with some of the other stuff that we do. So I think the revenue per hour is the best KPI that was ever introduced to us, and I have to give all the credit to Mike Laski introducing that to us. So that's the piece of the software. That element really has given us that opportunity. Tommy Cole: So, so one more quick question, Tom, about that. So, is that watch, like, gimme some context. Is that a daily thing? Is it posted? Are you watching, do the crews understand it? Like get a little more tactical, like how you guys, I, I know we've heard that from the Element software and, and that awesome team that. What that's there currently, just about revenue per hour, but gimme a little more tactical on that, how you guys use it. Dana and Tom Groh: We have it figured out. Dana does job costing At the end of every project, we have the estimated revenue per hour on everything that's sold for the year. So we already know that we're above average on every [00:28:00] project that we've sold. And then we do a job costing, and then we get the actual revenue per hour after we're finished. Tommy Cole: gotcha. Dana and Tom Groh: And so that is something everybody's aware of. Every single person in our company knows what the revenue per hour is on the projects that they're working, the type of work they're doing when they're going out. And everybody's trying to beat their time because we know if we get the job done ahead of, ahead of schedule, it will skyrocket that revenue per hour. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: in conjunction with our profit sharing, Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: profit sharing bonuses, that is really where the, the, the bulk of our profit comes through. Is, is through beating our, our estimates. And that goes back to the team every month. And that's fantastic. Tommy Cole: And so your team has bought in the revenue per hour. Was there a second part to this revenue per hour and then something else? Dana and Tom Groh: Well, what we also do then do is just, then we look at the same thing with LMN. The way they have our time app working[00:29:00] is they, everybody sees live how many hours are in the project. And they see if it's doable or not. And it really, people pick up the phone really quick. Mm-hmm. Or everybody in the field is like, there's not enough time in this job. Tell me there's a change order. Or something's not loaded right. Into the system. Mm-hmm. Because they'll get out of the job and say, this is, this is not obtainable. So what, what were you thinking? Is this scope of work? Am I looking at this right or wrong? Mm-hmm. And it gets the project managers, the salespeople, and the people in the field, they talk really quickly. Yeah. Tommy Cole: Yeah, Dana and Tom Groh: opens up conversations. It's just, it's so great. It's, you can have the conversations like, what's going really good, what didn't go so well? So then next time you know how you need to switch it up for the next job, the next similar job is Tommy Cole: yeah, yeah. It's a gauge on how you're performing. There's no other better way. Right? And I always coach you all this time you sell. An hour, you perform an hour. That's as simple as our landscape business [00:30:00] should ever be, but I think oftentimes we make it very difficult with, there's 50 shiny objects in front of us, and really all it comes down to is selling an hour of work. Dana and Tom Groh: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: Producing an hour of work or less, and at the end of the game, that's the only thing that matters. Once that's all been done, then, then the gross profit and the net profit and everything else kind of follows. But I think a lot of times we start on just gimme the gross profit, but gross profits just such a massive thing to follow. Right. And I feel like almost crew members can't understand what that is. Dana and Tom Groh: Mm-hmm. And. Tommy Cole: understand is the crew app that says, here's your budget, here's what you gotta go do. Right. And they get to see that live. Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, I think gross profit is a, it's a number that bankers like to see. I don't think it's a practical number for the field. Or even myself [00:31:00] for that matter. I don't pay any attention to the gross profit Tommy Cole: you share gross profit at one time? To the team? Okay. No, so it was. Dana and Tom Groh: And income for bonus. Yeah, Tommy Cole: You know, like, and that's okay. I think a lot of companies do that when they say share the numbers and all the, the knowledge, right? I think that's one step. But over the last few years I've really sort of realized that's not the right one and, and the revenue per hour and or also the budget versus actual, I call it, are probably the two most important things that they can really have an impact on budget versus actual on labor materials and subs. How to get buy in from your team Tommy Cole: And when you understand that. The team can really make a dis difference, good or bad. And so tell me about, real quick, tell me about how you got buy-in from the team. Is it just consistency? Is it an education piece? Is it training? Is it never let up on using the [00:32:00] software, the crew budget and the app and all that? Or, or something different? Dana and Tom Groh: I think our biggest buy-in is our bonus programs. So once they knew they can control their income and have a direct impact, I think our bonus systems worked. We keep adding some things to it and changing it and making it better. So we have a monthly profit sharing where 15% of our profit goes back to the crew every month, and that has a significant impact. We saw our production skyrocket and things really improve. On that one. Last year, we rolled out some individual based score not scorecards, but individual ba, individual based bonuses based on performance. And this year we made improvements to that as a balance scorecard. We picked up in the lean [00:33:00] landscaper using some of those balance scorecards. And made improvements to our, our individual stuff too. So now people know what winning looks like. Mm-hmm. And how they can and, and really what's important. What, what, what do they see, what we think is important to their success, and they can have a, a positive impact on their own lives. Yep. And then if, if somebody doesn't understand necessarily what a number means, or like, how does that work? They're really good about asking questions to get a better, better understanding, which is so great to see. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: it's really been fun. Tommy Cole: Yeah, it's, it's not an easy task, but I will tell you, everyone will understand if I've got a hundred hours, I gotta get it in a hundred hours. Dana and Tom Groh: Mm-hmm. Tommy Cole: The countdown starts now, right? Everyone will understand that from any level, no matter that, and what, and I think it all starts from you two when there's buy-in. And if you two are setting the bar at a certain [00:34:00] height and said, this is what we gotta do, there's really no questions about it, we gotta enroll out this to the team. And if you're consistent and you're adamant about it, then it trickles all the way down to every single level in the entire organization. That's good. Dana and Tom Groh: Yep. Tommy Cole: Gosh, so much stuff to talk about. The, the, you guys have got a lot, a lot of, lot of great things going on. Sort of like any one thing that's the success at MSC Talk about, let's, I'm gonna go ahead and answer this. For you, it's the people. Talk about the people on your team. We've talked about systems, we talked about really amazing projects. We talked about how Tom had a car and he was, you know, pushing a mower and putting saw in. But I wanna talk about the team and what, what that means to you. Is there any investments that you put in? there any coaching or mentorship or training or what? What does MSC do now? Dana and Tom Groh: We're a little bit of a sink or swim company, and we're trying to change that. So [00:35:00] we've been a I think we used to wear the badge of honor 20 years ago. As in the grit would show up and that would be kind of the differentiation. There wasn't a lot of training. It was basically here's, go out there and make money. And I can see that. And then the job soups used to scream at us 20 years ago and there's just a lot of yelling, you know, when we first got into the business and that was kind of the Cowboy Way era. That's dying. I mean, that nobody really wants to work for that kind of an organization. Tommy Cole: It is Dana and Tom Groh: It's, it's just that, that's, it's, it's not like we can't sit there and talk romantically about the past. Tommy Cole: right? Dana and Tom Groh: But there's some great memories. But again, we probably lost some really good people due to that kind of behavior. And so Tommy Cole: this is the learning curve, Tom, right? So no one's gonna be perfect. That's what I like about this. So we've got some work to do. Dana and Tom Groh: yeah. Tommy Cole: what's MSC sort of realizing that we need to do instead of to get it outta the cowboy area? What, what [00:36:00] are, what are some of our goals or what are some things that we need to get done here at MSC? Dana and Tom Groh: One thing that we're working on is developing SOPs. Tommy Cole: Okay. Dana and Tom Groh: We're very lacking in SOPs. I mean, we have a couple, but we're working, working hard to get everybody involved on, on that. Bringing in people for education. That's really been helpful. We all, we've been pretty good about doing like our local education, but we've been finding other workshops and involving our team on that, so then they can get a picture of what we're seeing as well. We're just not going back and saying, Hey, everybody, this was a, it was a great two days. You know, they're actually there with us, which has been valuable. So then they can go back and say, yeah, it is, it is a pretty neat thing. What, you know, what we're learning. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Well it does say a lot for you two. I know Tom was giving me sort of the oh crap moment when I said people, but you've had people on your team for a very long, long time, so you're doing something right. And I would, I would say, Tom, I would [00:37:00] say. The answer to that question is probably like your relationship, Dana and Tom Groh: Sorry. Tommy Cole: right? How we started off with it, with, with this show was, yeah, you got your client and you got your mentors and friends and you keep it going and your vendors, but more importantly, Tom, I think you carry that relationship. I just showed an example about the Eugene Duck at the end of the day and you, you randomly send text messages or randomly that quick phone call checking in. like, I'm blown away. So I know you're running a business and you're the owner, but talk about a relationship with everyone on your team. I bet you do. Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, we have great, absolutely great people that work with us. They've been with us a long time and in most everybody that works with us, we knew before they worked with us for a period of a decade or better. So, I mean, it's, it's, most of these people we've been around for 20 plus years, and that's kind of what [00:38:00] makes it fun. It, you know, it's, it's hard to bring outsiders in to our team just because it is a group that has known each other for so long and, and you know, we can kind of read each other's binds and. But si similar to a family, you can get on each other's nerves at points too. So, I mean, we have to be careful. We don't really consider ourselves a family, but, you know but we call ourselves one of the greatest teams out there. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: And that's really something that we're, we're, we're consistently and, and team members change from time to time. Sometimes somebody wants to go be part of a different team and, and we still remain friends with them after the fact too. So, I mean, this is a, it's, it's, it's a big. It's a big thing. The people are, are really what make this worth, worth doing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Tommy Cole: See them grow and develop. Dana and Tom Groh: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I would say yeah, the people, I mean, it is so huge and I know I personally do not, and do not like titles. I just wish we could just throw 'em out the door. I understand like as far as like, you know, people outside [00:39:00] of MSC, they need to know that. Some people get hung up on titles, you know, and it's a, a de it doesn't help anybody, you know, and it's like at I at our company, it's like everybody's willing to jump in when needed. It's not that nobody's too good to do whatever it may be. Tommy Cole: Right. Dana and Tom Groh: I think that's really important with the teamwork. Tommy Cole: I love that. Let's just put our titles and our egos to the side and let's just rock. At the end of the day, sometimes Dana has to just get up there and roll up her sleeves because there's a massive deadline and it's rained for three weeks straight. That doesn't really matter to Dana. She's all for it, but like the job won't get done if I just, you know, do something like that to help the team, or something's happened or someone left, someone got sick, like. Just call everyone a team member. I'm all for that, right? You have a reporting structure, but we can call everyone a team member. And I feel like that's, that's more powerful [00:40:00] than anything else. Hundred percent agree. What's the future of MSC? Dana and Tom Groh: Oh, we're gonna continue to row the boat. Tommy Cole: Row? The boat. Row The boat. Yep. Get more efficient. Dial in our SOPs, doing our systems and that sort of thing. You guys have grown a lot over the last, year and a half that I've met you, you both it's, it's been fun to see. Tom, I've gotta ask a question and I'm gonna ask Dana to, to wrap it up, but what's words of wisdom from the great Tom? Grow? Anyone out there listening? Give us, give us, give us the, Dana and Tom Groh: yeah. Tommy Cole: us the piece that you're like, wow, Dana and Tom Groh: Well, I don't know if it's a wow or anything, but I still have a couple, couple of pieces of advice for anybody that's in the business, in the industry for a long time. I certainly wholeheartedly believe you need to be in your local at least at your local level, participating in your a nonprofit. [00:41:00] Minnesota's the Minnesota Nursery Landscape Professionals. We also are in the Minnesota Parks and Sports Turf Association. Our local associations. We have great friends and network in there, and that has been a wonderful support group locally, nationally, and now we're starting to hang out with more Canadians. They're coming around. But we started hanging around with the the masterminds, the LMN Masterminds. We started going to grow events. Tommy Cole: Yep. Dana and Tom Groh: We, we joined lean Landscaper that has been turning out to be just an amazing experience. We're with the ACE Peer groups. That's great coaching. I think the piece for the coaching is, is we're about to be out coached at MSC. So we, I, I kind of tell our team that this is my plug, my shameless plug for Ace is the fact that when you're a million dollar a year company, you can coach a ninth grade BA basketball team. You get to two to 3 million, it's like you're at coaching at a high school level, you're at five to 10 million. You gotta start doing college ball [00:42:00] level coaching. You get yourself to 20, 25 million. Very few people get there and very few coaches can handle that pro level organizations. So if you're not getting yourself coached up to be at those, those levels, I think you're gonna, you're, you're, you're just gonna get out coached not only by your staff, your customers. And I think that's where the Ace peer group stuff it, because it's, it's, it's giving you a support group and a network. So that's my last minute advice for them. And then one of my favorite piece of advice that I ever got in my life is we were, I think we were 18 and we had a friend his father who was in the business, and we asked him what the secret to success was. And he smiled and laughed at us and he goes, boys, you just have to work half days. That's all you need to do. And we were all sitting there like sweet, you know, just like our friend's dad, he only works half days and he laughed as he walked outta the room. He goes, it doesn't matter which 12 you work. And we all just that we're gonna get smoked our whole life. [00:43:00] So Tommy Cole: Oh man, that is gonna settle well with me. Dana and Tom Groh: yeah so Tommy Cole: like, wow. Half day. Interesting. How do I do that? Dana and Tom Groh: half days. So that's a secret to success and we've been living it ever since. So. We work a lot of half days. Tommy Cole: half days. Lots of half days. Dana and Tom Groh: Half days. Tommy Cole: any words of wisdom? Dana and Tom Groh: Yeah, I definitely agree with what Tom said. And then I would say being we're a husband, wife team, how do we navigate that? We get a lot of questions like, how do you guys even work together? Like, really? Like how does that even work? And so I think through the years we've really been able to find, tune each other's roles. Not step on each other's toes, which has been really huge and definitely helped our business in many ways. Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: also trying to keep shop talk to a minimum after dinner, which can be a challenge, Tommy Cole: Yeah. Dana and Tom Groh: that we have three three boys that are running their own businesses. So they wanna, you know, they want to talk about their businesses as well. So sometimes I feel like all we do is talk about like either our work or the boys work or whatnot, but I'm like, we have to have something [00:44:00] else to talk about, Tommy Cole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe less about MSC, but listening to all the, the three boys in their, their young careers taking off in their own business. That, that's fascinating to watch. I've been. Watching one of 'em on LinkedIn intensely. He is a fascinating person. Shout out to Adam and and, his business. It's been great. Wow. So much good stuff to talk about. I just, you know, thank Tom and Dana that we ran into each other in that hotel room in Orlando. I, I feel like We both are. What's that? Dana and Tom Groh: how? Tommy Cole: Yeah, you, you both are great clients, but more importantly just great friends and, and good to have some, some beverages with, and celebrate and share each other's, you know, words of wisdom and understanding where we all come from, from our backgrounds, that sort of thing. My, my [00:45:00] dad is. His name's Tom. He's, he passed seven years ago and I feel like Tom Grow is almost like a little father figure to me a little bit. And it's, his name was Tom Cole and you're Tom Grow. I mean, it's, it's pretty, a lot of similar stuff and so it's good to have you both. And, and, but Farland Sanford, most importantly in my life, it's been in such an amazing thing to have you both. A lot. I've learned a ton. And so give, give them a shout out Minnesota Sawing Company. Unbelievable company. Go follow 'em on social media. They've got some unbelievable videos and pictures their, their great equipment and their team and Dana out there running all the equipment, telling all the, the, the Toms to this is how we do it, women, Dana and Tom Groh: that's Tommy Cole: Women wise. So, anyways. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure and we'll see you soon. Dana and Tom Groh: Thanks Tommy. Thank you. John: Ready to take the next step? Download our free Profitability [00:46:00] Scorecard to quickly create your own baseline financial assessment and uncover the fastest ways to improve your business. Just go to McFarlinStanford.com/scorecard to get yours today To learn more about McFarlin Stanford our best in class peer groups and other services go to our website at McFarlinStanford.com And don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. See you next time on the Roots of Success.